Why isnt vintage non sports more popular?

[Jichael Mordan]

It seems odd to me that vintage non sports isnt more popular than it is. I think card collectors as a whole understand that the older stuff has a limited supply and when thinking about non sports the "rookie" card aka first appearance card/sticker whatever should be even MORE coveted by collectors then a sports card. After all any athlete ever has x playing years some 5 some 20. But someone like Spiderman will have cards printed 50 years from now. so doesnt make sense that his 1966 Donruss card is worth way way way more ? I guess perhaps rarity doesnt equal value but it just seems illogical that people pay $2500 dollars for a PMG Black Panther but the black panther rookie card which is vintage and very cool is like $100. I guess one cant really think of card collecting logically (example 86 fleer Jordan: 500 trillion printed and PSA 1 still worth $123,456 dollars.

[JMStang]

I’d that there is more personal choice in non-sports cards than sports cards. With sports cards you can collect that specific player or just when he was on a specific team. With non-sports you can collect for when that character was going g through a specific story arc, drawn by a specific artist, using a specific costume, or on a specific team.

Also remember that the new hotness is going to surge no matter what.


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[Grid]

Non-Sports has always been more about pop culture and having a connection to something.

Most Non-Sport sets back in the day, were just clever ways to advertise new or hit shows/movies. And its the same now.

NS card collector buy what speaks to them. If its 90's nostalgia, from when they were growing up, they will lean into the Fleer metal stuff. Or 90s marvel in general. Which is why a Black Panther PMG, will always be more in demand than the 1966 "rookie"

The problem with all pop culture, is the demographic ages out of collectability. 40 years ago, Western Stars and Howdy Duty were popular to collect. As those growing up in the 40s and 50s grew up and wanted to buy into their childhoods. Now, that stuff is nearly worthless as the collectors have aged out of collecting, or just died off.

You are just confusing scarcity with collectability. Just because something is scare, doesnt mean everyone wants it. And things that are collectible today, may not be so tomorrow.

[DynaEtch]

I’d argue lots of those sets like 66 Donruss Marvel or 66 Topps Batman aren’t really all that scarce. In the high grades, sure, but not in general. What hurts the marvel set in particular is it’s so bland and goofy…I mean have you seen the Spider-Man “rc”.

As for older vintage going back to the early 1900s, I’ve said it before in the pickup threads but I’m surprised just how cheap many of those cards are…cards that survived 100+ years, of historical significance etc. I am certainly no expert in this area but some of my guesses why prices so low:

-Much of it isn’t branded, which is big for collectibility. Cards about history, public figures, birds, landscapes etc. Superheroes, franchises, movies etc tend to do better with value.

-Some of the biggest things in the nonsports hobby are autos, sketches, and relics, and numbered cards. And vintage nonsports has almost none of that to my knowledge.

-Nonsports is niche as it is. A subset like vintage is pretty niche. It is true there is somewhat an old guard/new guard in non sports. And that tends to align closely with vintage vs modern.

-In superhero genre, vintage cards have always been outshined by comics, just how it is. Generally in cases like Spider-Man the 1st card comes way after the 1st comic…cards are playing second fiddle. Sports doesn’t have this.

[cmixer]

My uneducated guess is that NonSports is also about a little bit of "bragging rights." Low-grade commons don't interest collectors.

If you have a PSA 10 (or pop1) of a Vintage card, it's collectible, but a common mid-grade 1966 Batman will only sell $5.00-10.00.

But even a PSA 10 of an oddball like a Tobacco Card of a Bird might not generate interest.

An interesting example is the 1931 Wills Cinema Stars Series 3 set.
You can probably buy the entire set (minus card #24) for $10.00

Of course, card #24 is Walt Disney and "Mickey Mouse" and will set you back $300 or more because it's a "Rookie."

[Jichael Mordan]

one more tidbit regarding "vintage". Almost no one alive today and actively buying cards watched Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb play. That is to say todays vintage baseball guys did not start as vintage baseball guys. They grew up in the 60's or 70s or whatever and the went backwards towards the all time greats (T206 cards, 1933 Goudey, 52 Topps etc etc). But in non sports that historically has not occurred. Kids that grew up collecting mid 90s Marvel stuff never reached back for 1979 Wimpy Cards or 1980 Terrabusi or 1966 Donruss or whatver . I think its 1/3 no one cares, 1/3 no one knows, 1/3 undervalued. In the future I'd think the 66 Donruss and similar set go up . BUT on the other hand, the set is 58 years old and no one cared about it in the past, why would the market (us as collectors) suddenly in 2024 decide: "oh crap I guess I really should get Thor's rookie card". Not very likely . so here we are . going to keep buying the newest release of Kaboom super refractor autographed Hulk cards . Idk . seems illogical to me.

[PoPCulture]

I would say older non-sport sets are very popular with collectors. The fact that you can get most 1970’s Tv show complete sets for $10-20 is fantastic. Plus, they were printed in such high numbers and sold everywhere so there is no shortage of complete sets to be found for most sets. These pretty much stay in collectors hands when acquired and don’t get passed around very much because the value doesn’t fluctuate.

Now if you’re asking why they aren’t more popular with investors and influencers then that’s a slightly more complex answer but the basis is the same as the information in the first paragraph.

Many attempts have been made to make “nonsports rookie card” a thing but most collectors that have collected more than the past 4 years generally scoffs at the idea. Especially when the cards aren’t shiny.

[finfangfan]

I actually love the fact that I can sell modern cards for a premium and buy vintage nonsports on the cheap. As to why this is possible… I think the biggest thing is what others have said above is that there really isn’t as high of a demand for “rookie” nonsports character cards as there is for rookie sports star cards. In general, the “rookie” item for most comic characters is their first comic book appearance.

That said, I still love buying up old nonsports stuff and actually love the aesthetic of owning a beat up card that has lasted 60, 70, 100+ years.

[CicadaMound]

I actively look for vintage nonsports at card shows and I'm lucky if one or two dealers have anything, even at larger/midsized regional shows like Xenia or Moeller. It's a bear to find IRL, at least where I live. And good luck if you're going after anything other than Star Wars, GPK, or other Topps releases.

That's part of the fun, though, because I'm forced to go to antique, stamp, coin, toy, comic, postcard and paper shows on the off chance one dealer has anything relevant to me.

[chilly55]

The only vintage non-sports I'm currently collecting right now (Pre Star Wars) has been Planet of the Apes, Wacky Packages & the 1940-1942 Wings Cigarettes sets. With non-sports for me, it's about finding subjects I enjoy. Loved POA and was a kid when Wacky Packages came out as tests. I'm a "fan" of WWII planes, so this set had several pre-war/war planes to collect. There is also a 1952 Wings set that I will be tackling next as well as finishing up my Gilligan's Island upgraded set.

It's not about the scarcity, but what I enjoy. I've passed on vintage Beatles, Batman, Car, Indian ++ sets simply because not a fan or they just don't interest me. Same in sports. I collect certain players and sets and pass over everything else. If I get cards of players or sets I don't collect, I trade or sell them.

So while there are a lot of scarce vintage cards, why spend money on something that doesn't interest me. I'm probably part of the problem as to why vintage isn't higher than it should be, but heck, if I can pick up the 1940's Wings cards for under $10.00 a piece in high grade condition, I'm tickled that very few others collect the same set. If they did, I would probably have to spend a lot more money that I want too. So my vintage collecting is very narrow, whereas my modern collecting is more broad.

[HiltonL]

I think this all boils down to money. We've all talked about 100 year old sets, iconic subjects, being a niche versus standardized sports.

The cardinal rule of selling in a collectibles market is 'find the right buyer'. Right after 'make money to stay in the game' There are and have been huge fandoms for individual sports stars, which drives people with money to buy their collectibles, which creates a virtuous cycle in which a thing having value draws in more fans who know about such thing and have money, to bid on the thing. There are huge numbers of fans of cricket or rugby, but have the fans committed their money to collectibles? You can see the obvious cycle of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant collectibles, yet far bigger worldwide sports like cricket or even dare I say soccer/football haven't yet had their collectibles moment in spite of having global superstars of their own right like Lionel Messi. (Showing my lack of sports knowledge here)

Bringing this back to vintage, fandoms have to be aware of the niche collectible thing, then have to want it enough to pony up the money, then have to display it so that other fans know the thing is worth X dollars. As was written earlier, so many non-sports vintage collections are labors of love that go straight into cupboards and attics, that there is almost no chance of it becoming widely known. But have you ever encountered a basketball fan who hasn't heard of (and coveted) Jordan or Kobe trading cards? Sports picture cards are widely known even by non-fans. Sports fans absolutely love to show off their favorite player/team/sport.

My chosen fandom, Marvel, is everywhere on merch, but the trading cards are very much niche. The first ones available were only from the 1960s. There was a brief flash of time where PMGs caught fire value-wise but that hasn't turned into a lasting value proposition. The money has to be drawn in and the publicity has to exist to create the envy, otherwise what was once valuable withers and becomes the modern version of a silverware set or Hummel figurine. When was the last time you lusted for a set of Flags trading cards?

[PrinceVegeta]

I started sets of n76, n15 and n222. Amazing prewar sets but very little on the market to buy

[Rictor]

There weren't millions of Jordan rookie cards printed. The 86-87 Fleer basketball set was the lowest printed set of the 80s other than the 87-88 Fleer basketball set. Both were impossible to find within a week or release.

It's estimated that there were 150-200,000 set produce of 86-87.

I was a card collector when these came out and I was able to buy around 3 packs at retail before I never saw them again at any card shop, card show, flea market, etc. except for crazy prices I could afford.

To answer your question, I think there are plenty of nonsports collectors, we just don't acknowledge or care about "rookie" cards since they don't exist in nonsports. Also, nonsports print runs are in the millions, just like sports cards, so there isn't a lot that is truly rare. Even nonsports tobacco cards from the late 1800s aren't hard to find for cheap, although suddenly random cards that used to be $20 like the Walt Disney "rookie" are worth $1,000 because of Covid speculators driving up the price.

[DynaEtch]

I agree on the RC point, but you can even take that out of the equation and vintage sports cards outside of RCs (say random Mantles in the 50s or 60s or earlier Babe Ruths) get way more interest/command higher prices than vintage non sports. And that still requires an explanation, which I think comes down to demand/awareness.

Someone said it earlier and I very much agree. Kids in the 50-60s collected mainly sports (baseball) cards. You don’t hear many stories about them putting nonsports cards back then into bike spokes etc. They also read comics. Starting in maybe the early 70s the collectibility of older cards/back issue comics really came into its own, and going into the next few decades became quite valuable. (I’d argue this could have happened, to a lesser extent, for us kids collecting 90s marvel cards except by the 90s things were already carefully sleeved and treated as collectibles/investments so zillions survived and prices are low to this day). When you think of traditional “valuable collectibles”- like ask a random person on the street- the answer will be vintage baseball cards, comics, vintage sealed star wars action figures, etc. Certainly not vintage non sports cards. Most people can’t tell you what Superman’s Gum Inc first card looks like but they probably are well aware of Action Comics #1. Nonsports cards just dont have the same public recognition.

Vintage nonsports is much more collector-dominant/ old guard and has been relatively untouched by the hype/investor crowd from sports (maybe thats a good thing?). Think like net54 type vintage type nonsports board. It got through the covid craze fairly under the radar, although people have caught on to the Spiderman donruss RC and Batman #1 Topps card. Clearly the answer to why the black panther green PMG sells for gazillions more is because it was a targeted insert during the craze and price went up to those heights artificially. Also a lot less of it out there (just 10).

Vintage doesn’t have foil/snazzines/chrome and since the 90s that’s part of the draw of the cards at least in marvel.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by Jichael Mordan

one more tidbit regarding "vintage". Almost no one alive today and actively buying cards watched Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb play. That is to say todays vintage baseball guys did not start as vintage baseball guys. They grew up in the 60's or 70s or whatever and the went backwards towards the all time greats (T206 cards, 1933 Goudey, 52 Topps etc etc). But in non sports that historically has not occurred. Kids that grew up collecting mid 90s Marvel stuff never reached back for 1979 Wimpy Cards or 1980 Terrabusi or 1966 Donruss or whatver . I think its 1/3 no one cares, 1/3 no one knows, 1/3 undervalued. In the future I'd think the 66 Donruss and similar set go up . BUT on the other hand, the set is 58 years old and no one cared about it in the past, why would the market (us as collectors) suddenly in 2024 decide: "oh crap I guess I really should get Thor's rookie card". Not very likely . so here we are . going to keep buying the newest release of Kaboom super refractor autographed Hulk cards . Idk . seems illogical to me.

You cant ignore the magic of sports. They have long celebrated the history of past heroes. You didn't need to see Babe Ruth play, to know he was a legend of the sport.

Those that watched Hank Aaron break the Babes record in the 70's, 40 years after Ruth set it. Gave way to a new generation that watched Barry Bonds break Aarons record, 40 years later.

They build statues to these players. Their pictures are all over social media, in stadiums and they are constantly being mentioned. Which is why sports cards have always aged like fine wine. VS Pop Culture driven NS cards.

[finfangfan]

Speaking of Babe Ruth… one additional quirk between sports and nonsports collecting is that if they insert a 1/1 Babe Ruth card in a modern product… chances are it will not generate too much buzz (unless a cut auto). Conversely Spidey/Wolverine/Batman 1/1s will be the top hits in the sets they appear in today and likely in nonsports sets they appear in decades from now.

So while sports cranks out new heroes and future heroes to collect each new season and/or draft, nonsports doesn’t produce nearly as many new buzzworthy characters each year and the popularity of future nonsports sets will rest on the capetails of heroes that have already been popular for decades.

[MKUltra]

I lurk in another message board that is more focused on vintage NS; https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/
and from what little I've seen between both, there is primarily vintage and lower activity. Here is what's current and more activity.

There are some sets, Horrors of War for example that are pricey in any grade. But NS, especially vintage has many more genres.

Maybe I live in the wrong area, Philly, but I don't think NS is cheap. But I've always compared it to the commons of the sports sets though, not the Ruth/Mantle issues that was done above.

Tom Hanks mentioned in A LEague of Their Own that sports bind us together, so the market or demand should be higher. I like the Rock & Roll and Military issues for NS, and I think the greater variation is what keeps prices lower than what similar collectible formats achieve. I don't know if there are any Taylor Swift trading cards, but imagine what a concert used garment swatch would go for, or the wax box.

[Grid]

Originally Posted by finfangfan

Speaking of Babe Ruth… one additional quirk between sports and nonsports collecting is that if they insert a 1/1 Babe Ruth card in a modern product… chances are it will not generate too much buzz (unless a cut auto). Conversely Spidey/Wolverine/Batman 1/1s will be the top hits in the sets they appear in today and likely in nonsports sets they appear in decades from now.

So while sports cranks out new heroes and future heroes to collect each new season and/or draft, nonsports doesn’t produce nearly as many new buzzworthy characters each year and the popularity of future nonsports sets will rest on the capetails of heroes that have already been popular for decades.

Meh, debatable. You only listed three of the biggest comic book stars of all time. But NS isnt just for comic cards.

People yawn over the endless sets of Star Wars that get kicked out. And even a Luke Skywalker 1/1 now fits the same mold as your Babe Ruth above.

If anything, NS beats the bigger themes to death. How many Game of Thrones sets are we on now? How many Marvel movies? Do we need another Elvis and Marilyn Monroe set? Are gamers buying up all these Halo, Fornite and Call of Duty cards?

Dr Who, Star Trek, X Files, James Bond ETC are all being beaten to death. And what are we on, the 100th different version of Garbage Pail Kids now? We have seen the same Adam Bomb card on 1000 different refactors across countless sets.

So, you are right. As they all appear in today and likely in nonsports sets decades from now. But I think that hurts your argument, as the more gets made the less rare they are. And that hurts the collectability IMO. With each new Metal PMG that gets made, the older ones lose value.

[dd316]

It's not shiny enough for the current climate.

I do think one "problem" with vintage non-sports is there is SO MUCH diversity. You can't whittle it down to 4 major sports. You've got superheroes, fire trucks, Coca-Cola, music, monsters, birds, actors, Disney, aliens, TV shows, holidays, etc etc etc... and each of those has a million offshoots. Yes, some are more popular, but it's easy for everyone to find their own "thing", and the competition isn't as heavy across the board. You want a Michael Jordan card, 80,000 others want that card making it popular. You want a 1965 Brooke Bond Tea Wild Birds in Britain, odds are almost nobody else cares.

[cmixer]

Random Thought:

If there was only one Star Wars set, it would be very desirable. Same if there was only one KISS (band) set, one GPK set, one Mars Attacks set, etc. -- I wonder if every additional set dilutes the value of the previous nonsports set.

[dd316]

Originally Posted by cmixer

Random Thought:

If there was only one Star Wars set, it would be very desirable. Same if there was only one KISS (band) set, one GPK set, one Mars Attacks set, etc. -- I wonder if every additional set dilutes the value of the previous nonsports set.

I think more sets would build the audience.

[finfangfan]

I kind of wish Fanatics didn’t fold Zerocool after they acquired Topps as it seemed from their initial launch announcement that they were going to branch out into more pop culture sets with music artists and actors and other properties that you don’t normally think of having trading cards. They did get a decent Jackass set out before they folded at least.

[HiltonL]

Originally Posted by Grid

So, you are right. As they all appear in today and likely in nonsports sets decades from now. But I think that hurts your argument, as the more gets made the less rare they are. And that hurts the collectability IMO. With each new Metal PMG that gets made, the older ones lose value.

I'm not following how you square this with the endless Jordan/Lebron/etc parade of sports cards. The longer the legend grows, the more valuable the older cards get. Sure maybe not the 2nd through 15th year cards, but the new commons serve as placeholders as the collectors grow in their fandom and get more money to afford the older less common stuff.

[HiltonL]

Originally Posted by cmixer

Random Thought:

If there was only one Star Wars set, it would be very desirable. Same if there was only one KISS (band) set, one GPK set, one Mars Attacks set, etc. -- I wonder if every additional set dilutes the value of the previous nonsports set.

It's true to a point. If there are 10 collectors of KISS, and one set, probably that would satisfy the demand. But there are millions of KISS fans, and if just 1% of those fans are trading card fans, that's 10,000 collectors who might want more than simple concert poses, thus creating the demand for more sets. More sets doesn't stop the love for concert poses.
In non-sports, it only takes a handful of 'whales' aka moneyed collectors to chase a specific thing to drive prices way up

It's a combination of awareness, desire, and money.

[HiltonL]

Originally Posted by finfangfan

I kind of wish Fanatics didn’t fold Zerocool after they acquired Topps as it seemed from their initial launch announcement that they were going to branch out into more pop culture sets with music artists and actors and other properties that you don’t normally think of having trading cards. They did get a decent Jackass set out before they folded at least.

Nothing Vaynerman touches has lasting value. 100% hype every time