Offensive ROY?

[jubei777]

Was bored during lunch and was taking a look at the stats of the first round offensive rookies. The QB's seem to be tanking it and the RB's are slowly producing. The big pick seems to be Harvin. Any thoughts?

[Zacky1053]

Originally Posted by jubei777

Was bored during lunch and was taking a look at the stats of the first round offensive rookies. The QB's seem to be tanking it and the RB's are slowly producing. I thought that Harvin would be topps but it looks like Austin is hands down higher on stats.

Harvin: 36 receptions, 501 yards, 4 TD
Austin: 35 receptions, 679 yards, 7 TD

Anyone have any thoughts on ROY?

Austin's not a rookie. Harvin is a force in the kick return game as well. Unlike last year, the top two QB's in the draft aren't faring quite as well. They've had flashes of brilliance but equal amounts of the opposite. If Moreno or Beanie Wells really kick up their yardage and TD totals, they'll have a shot.

[oldgoldy97]

Miles Austin is not a rookie. Harvin is in the lead as of now, with his receiving stats and return stats.

D'oh! Zacky, you beat me to it. I thought he might have been talking about Austin Collie, so I looked up his stats just in case.

[buckeyefan32]

Also, I think knowshon moreno is playing very well, and you could beanie wells into that mix if he picks it up a little

[oldgoldy97]

Beanie has a nice schedule coming up. If they can just give him the majority of the work, he could end up with a really nice season.

[jubei777]

yeah, sorry about that. i get those austin's confused since they both "came out" this year. compared to last year's rookie class it's kind of a shame that the hyped QB's have taken a dump and right now it's really just Harvin and possibly Beenie if he gets more playing time.

[Zacky1053]

Originally Posted by jubei777

yeah, sorry about that. i get those austin's confused since they both "came out" this year. compared to last year's rookie class it's kind of a shame that the hyped QB's have taken a dump and right now it's really just Harvin and possibly Beenie if he gets more playing time.

Well admit it, we also got spoiled by last year's class. Chris Johnson is being talked as a Top 5 RB overall, Flacco is much improved, Ray Rice is proving to be a 2,000-yard threat (rushing/receiving), Rashard Mendenhall is healthy and enjoying it, Jonathan Stewart's doing well in a stellar two-back rotation, I could go on.

[cdub6238]

honestly i dont know who is going to win, definately to early to tell..nobody seems to really be in the lead..

QBS:

Stafford- 170/308 55.2% 1911 yards 11.2 yards/completion 11 TDs 14 Ints 66.9 rating 2 wins

Sanchez- 138/265 52.1% 1791 yards 12.9 yards/completion 10 TDs 16 Ints 61.1 rating 4 wins

RBS:

Moreno- 142 attempts 600 yards 4.2/ypa 2 TD 2 Fumbles

Wells- 100 attemtps 469 yards 4.7/ypa 4 TD 3 Fumbles

McCoy- 106 attempts 452 yards 4.3/ypa 3 TD 2 Fumbles

WRS:

Harvin- 55 targets 36 receptions 501 yards 13.9/ypc 4 TD 1 Fumble

Maclin- 60 targets 37 receptions 477 yards 12.9/ypc 4 TD

Massaqoui- 63 targets 25 receptions 473 yards 18.9/ypc 1 TD 1 Fumble

Nicks- 46 targets 28 receptions 473 yards 16.9/ypc 4 TD 1 Fumble

Collie- 57 targets 39 receptions 413 yards 10.6/ypc 4 TD

Crabtree- 36 targets 22 receptions 292 yards 13.3/ypc 1 TD 1 Fumble

very very hard to judge...its almost like the Heisman race every year, better stats wont neccessarily mean they win as most people like/vote for teams with winning records...

i can see that being justified with the QBs but shouldnt matter for other candidates

i dont see either QB winning with the horrible TD/Int ratios

RBs are just now getting their chance to shine (Moreno as a starter now, Wells getting more touches, and McCoy starting while Westbrook is injured)

i could see it being a WR..im not doubting Harvins retunr ability, but that should have absolutely NO FACTOR AT ALL when talking about OFFENSIVE ROY...if anything id say Massaqoui shouldbein the lead based on his stats playing for the less than talented Offense of the Browns, but then again he has the worst target/reception percentages of the group

you might laugh at me for even mentioning Crabtree but considering hes only played in what 4 games and has put up those kind of stats..

[56LightsOut56]

Crabtree looks solid

[gman71]

It's Harvin's to lose,although didn't Sanchez already get the award after about 2 games??

[Shinypsptitans]

Percy.....

[ohiomike]

Has Mike Wallace seriously not been mentioned?!?! I'd give the nod to Harvin right now, but Wallace would absolutely be in the mix. Definitely top 5. 500 yards and 3 TD on only 28 receptions. I hate having to pump up a Steeler, but Wallace definitely deserves to be a part of the ROY discussion.

[cdub6238]

completely forgot about Mike Wallace..only knock on him is hes only catching slightly over 55% of his targets..

and seriously can someone explain to me why everybody is on Harvin??
the Vikings have only 1 loss..so what?? he returns kicks/punts..ok what does that have to do with Offensive ROY?? i do remember people having the same discussion about Devin Hester a few years ago..if anything Special Teams is should be considered part of Defense not Offense.

again not trying to pump up Crabtree, just pointing the facts..hes only got 209 yards less than Harvin, roughly the same YPC, only 14 less catches-and hes only played in only 5 games where as Harvin has played in all 10 games

now maybe in terms Rookie MVP for his team then sure..but strictly as Offensive ROY..please

[Zacky1053]

Crabtree's also one of Alex Smith's few options to throw to, and inexperienced quarterbacks tend to feed the ball to the same players. Harvin has to compete with Sidney Rice, Bernard Berrian, Vinsanthe Shiancoe, Chester Taylor, etc. I also think that the fact that he can be a full-time KR AND WR is big. Devin Hester could barely do both, Josh Cribbs is mainly a return man.

[cdub6238]

Zacky-not tryin to pick a fight with anyone over this subject as it is all subjective and opinionated...my problem with these discussions is the same as with the Heisman race. People seem to think that Tebow and McCoy should be at the top of the race only because their "good leaders" and their teams are undefeated...why exactly does that make them the top player in CFB?? their stats are definatley nowhere near worthy of that honor..if anything Jimmy Claussen of ND should be the Heisman winner, but because his team has so many L's all of his stats and his play this year gets overlooked..

anyways sorry to get off-target

I understand the point your trying to make with him competing with other players, but again i ask why should that matter?? Is it the players fault that nobody else on the team is able to make plays??

it should be based on Offensive stats and that alone...not how many wins a team has, not how much competition at the position on the team, not Special Team Return abilities (and those that wanna argue that as offensive stats, dont you have 9 guys setting up blocks on KO returns and at least 5 on PRs..not to mention you get to see the whole field etc etc...not knockin the kids ability or saying its easy but to categorize this as Offensive ability is ludicrous)

i wasnt hyping Crabtree or saying he should win it.was just pointing out what hes been able to do in half the games that Harvin has as an OFFENSIVE player

if i had to pick right now, id actually go with Maclin..hes got roughly the same amount of stats as Harvin (5 more targets, 1 more reception, 24 less yards, 1.0/YPC less) but unlike any other candidate 0 fumbles...

[cdub6238]

---keep in mind my posts are in reference to Offensive ROY, not as overall talent as players..i actually like Harvin and think he brings a lot to the team with his Special teams abilities...just dont think that should help his status as OFF ROY---

[Zacky1053]

Originally Posted by cdub6238

...not Special Team Return abilities (and those that wanna argue that as offensive stats, dont you have 9 guys setting up blocks on KO returns and at least 5 on PRs..not to mention you get to see the whole field etc etc...

A quarterback is no good without an offensive line. Most long runs and passes are the result of a few good blocks along the way, so if you want to use that argument for PR/KR it doesn't really work. Plus, if blocking were the only key, teams like the Colts, Saints and Patriots should have lights out kick return men too.

[gman71]

There's no way on this planet Crabtree wins offensive ROY.

[cdub6238]

Ok maybe my last few posts havent been clear...

Originally Posted by Zacky1053

A quarterback is no good without an offensive line. Most long runs and passes are the result of a few good blocks along the way, so if you want to use that argument for PR/KR it doesn't really work. Plus, if blocking were the only key, teams like the Colts, Saints and Patriots should have lights out kick return men too.

I wasnt knocking on Harvins talent as either a reciever or as a PR/KR man...im simply trying to figure out why people are putting so much stock in his Offensive ROY-ie its his to lose, hes a lock etc...hes a very talented athlete and yes his KR/PR have helped put his team in position to score and win games..but this thread was about OFFENSIVE ROY...why should the Vikings 9-1 record matter (see my Heisman argument), why should it matter who he has to compete with on the team, why should it matter if hes a great KR/PR..its about him as an OFFENSIVE PLAYER...now in terms of overrall Rookie of the year or rookie MVP or something then sure that matters...

again id have to say Maclin right now as he has virtually the same stats as Harvin (oh no a whopping 3 yards less per game average) but 0 Fumbles..sure Harvin only has 1, but that makes a difference to me

"There's no way on this planet Crabtree wins offensive ROY."

i never said he will or deserves to...my point being was that he has put up those numbers despite only playing in 5 games, where as everybodys favorite Harvin has played in all 10 games...

so if Harvin and Crabtree both play average or slightly better the rest of the season, thatll put Harvin at about 850 yards 7 TDs, Crabtree at close to 725 yards and 3 TDs..you wouldnt find what Crabtree had done to be more impressive?? again thats just speculation a who knows til the end of the season

i honestly wouldnt be surprised if either Wells or Moreno climbed to the top if the take over the full load on the ground, but the thing hurting them is fumbles

[zammos1]

Lot of talk about the skill position players with nobody really separating themselves. Don't forget about Michael Oher. Getting some pub because of the movie but he's been pretty damn good at left & right tackle for Baltimore.

[moestavern10]

as a Vikings fan, i really like Harvin, because has made a BIG impact in practically all of the games that he has been in, he gets in and makes the big plays that we need to pump up our offense, we wouldnt be in the position that we are in without Harvin as a WR and a KR. Austin Collie and Maclin are really good WR's that contributes to their teams success as well. Crabby has good stats as well especially for the late start to his season(and due to Crabbieness of Heyward-beys money), Wallace honorable mention as well.

[oldgoldy97]

Originally Posted by cdub6238

Ok maybe my last few posts havent been clear...

They've been clear enough, just not very concise.

Fumbles, please, you must be the only person looking at those as deciding factors.

Special teams. They're part of D in fantasy, but it's closer to offense than defense in reality. Do you get tackled on offense or defense? Do you have the ball on offense or defense? A returner is getting tackled when he has the ball.

I didn't read anyone else talking about the Vikings record as sway for Harvin besides you. It isn't as cut and dried on Harvin as some make it out to be, especially since there are still 6 games left.

[ohiomike]

Originally Posted by cdub6238

and seriously can someone explain to me why everybody is on Harvin??
the Vikings have only 1 loss..so what?? he returns kicks/punts..ok what does that have to do with Offensive ROY?? i do remember people having the same discussion about Devin Hester a few years ago..if anything Special Teams is should be considered part of Defense not Offense.

Devin Hester finished in 5th place for Offensive rookie of the year in the 2006-07 season including 2 second place votes. He had exactly 0 catches for 0 yards and 0 TD's as a receiver. 0 rushes for 0 yards and 0 TD's rushing the ball. He hid have 67 combined punk/kick returns for 1128 yards and 5 touchdowns. Return stats ARE relevant when considering offensive ROY.

[thekramers5]

Originally Posted by cdub6238

..if anything Jimmy Claussen of ND should be the Heisman winner, but because his team has so many L's all of his stats and his play this year gets overlooked..

If there is a combination sport/position where Ws & Ls do matter, it's football.

In no other sport can one player influence the amount of Ws & Ls so much than the QB in football (or ridiculously dominant player in basketball - Jordan, LeBron, Kobe). Considering that Notre Dame always gets some of the best recruits in the country (Every Year) - I could never give the Heisman award to a QB from Notre Dame whose team hovers around mediocrity (i.e., close to .500 winning percentage).

[gman71]

Originally Posted by thekramers5

If there is a combination sport/position where Ws & Ls do matter, it's football.

In no other sport can one player influence the amount of Ws & Ls so much than the QB in football (or ridiculously dominant player in basketball - Jordan, LeBron, Kobe). Considering that Notre Dame always gets some of the best recruits in the country (Every Year) - I could never give the Heisman award to a QB from Notre Dame whose team hovers around mediocrity (i.e., close to .500 winning percentage).

Notre Dame and it's recruiting class is the most overhyped thing every single year. They get high rankings cause of who they are. Count the # of Notre Dame players drafted over the last couple of years,and you'll how truthful the rankings are. USC had 9 guys on the DEFENSIVE side of the ball drafted last year. Dame hasn't had that many drafted in years combined