Calling all 1990 Topps George Bush experts! Mystery needs your help!

[charnick]

Hello all! Does anyone out there own a 1990 Topps George Bush USA card? Either the "regular" or the White House "Glossy" edition? I have a mystery on my hand here with a card I've purchased. I will update the thread with pix if anyone needs/wants to see them, but I wanted to throw my story out there first...

Picked up a Glossy version on eBay about 2 months ago, for a pretty penny, my first time spending over a grand on a single card, but I thought it would be a worthy purchase. I know the regular versions have been dropping like a rock value wise with the discovery of the "Glossy White House" version, but this one was the Glossy, graded a 7.5 NM+ by BGS, so I thought it would be awesome to own one of the 100 given to the President back in 1990.

Well, for no real reason whatsoever, I prefer my high-end, pre-2000, non-chrome cards to go to PSA, so I sent the slab directly into them for a crossover, minimum grade 7. Came back no, did not hit minimum. Oh well... resend it in, minimum grade 6, again came back did not hit minimum. A BGS 7.5 doesn't equal a PSA 6?!?! OK, fine whatever. This time there was at least a note on the return saying "Looks like White House version." Nice, at least I have some sort of informal confirmation that it's the right one.

Next, I end up sending it to SGC, as I just recently picked up a 1990 Frank Thomas NNOF SGC 5, and thought OK, these would look nice together in the same brand of slab. SGC contacted me directly, said it would indeed cross at the minimum grade of 7 I had requested, but they didn't think it was the White House version. Basically said BGS got it wrong. Oy vey, what is going on here?!?! Had them send it back to me in the BGS slab. I should have left well enough alone, but I needed to know just what version I had. I don't plan on selling it any time soon, but if I or my kids ever do, and it's not what the slab says, it could become a bit of an issue, obviously.

So now, I needed to know what was up... BGS thinks it the Glossy, SGC doesn't, and PSA thought (though not officially) it was. I cracked it out of the BGS slab and sent it in to PSA raw. Figured it would be best not to bias the situation with the BGS slab. When I cracked it, I checked it out myself as well as I could. There was most definitely a coating on top of the card. Clear as day... and did not look like any other 1990 Topps card I ever had (out of the thousands AND the Thomas NNOF). So now I'm really confused. So as I said, sent it back in to PSA raw, and it came back an 8 (after not hitting a minimum 6 when sent in the BGS slab!) but they still don't see it as the White House version.

So basically, I'm trying to find anyone that may have either version to explain to me what their card looks like so I can some additional information to go by. Does anyone here own the regular version? Does it have any kind of coating on it at all, or does it resemble the matte finish of the 40,000,000 other 1990 Topps cards out there? Does anyone have the Glossy version? Does your coating extend past the edges of the card? How "thick" is it? Thanks in advance to anyone that may be able to help.

[WillBBC]

I'm glad you posted this over on Net54. I've seen a handful of threads about the Bush card pop up over the last few years. I hope you find some answers, good luck! Great card no matter which version you have!

[charnick]

Hey Will! Thought it prudent to throw this over there as well. I know it's more vintage skewed, but I wanted to cover all my bases... this has been such a crazy thing to deal with!

I think I'm finally getting down to the nitty gritty with this in discussions with PSA's customer service department. The confusion arises from their web articles saying the original, regulatr versions resemble standard issue 1990 Topps cards. The truth I now discover is that they don't. They readily admitted to me that the "regular" Bush cards are also glossy in appearance, just not "laminated" like the newly-discovered version. So to someone like me that hasn't seen a regular issue, and only went by the "Glossy" notation on the BGS slab, you can see how one would get confused.

So now it appears BGS is one of the parties in the wrong here. They are slapping Glossy notations on some of their slabs of regular issues, and unscrupulous sellers (like the one I bought mine from, I do believe that for sure) are selling them claiming their White House issue. BGS does have both versions in their pop report, so I don't know if any of the other "Glossy"-notated cards are regular or White House versions.

So all in all, I went from thinking I had a White House issue to not, but my card went from a BGS 7.5 to a PSA 8, so other than all my grading and shipping fees back and forth, I should hopefully not be out too much should I ever decide to move the card (right now it's strictly PC). And much like the recent hubbub over the obviously-fake Wagner, I'm glad to have the matter settled, because if I ever did move it, claim it to be the White House when it's not, it would have opened an even larger can of worms for me!

Either way, I've asked PSA to update their web articles to note that the regular versions are also glossy. It's very contradictory to say they resemble regular 1990 Topps issue, but also still have a glossy appearance!

[Gmrson]

What puzzles me is why it was graded by BGS originally? The only White House versions that had surfaced were graded by PSA all at the same time. They are far from experts, but hopefully they had the same person(s) examine yours.

I wonder if BGS tracked who submitted your card? You have quite a mystery on this one....Good Luck!

edit: looks like you got some answers.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

I have a 1990 Bush. A "find" of these were recently discovered by an ex-Topps employee. I would say over 50 at the minimum, and all of these are NOT the white house version. I know who some of the sellers are that got these recent cards, so if you want to pm me with whom you purchased it from, I can almost with certainty tell you if it was from this "find".

[Gmrson]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

I have a 1990 Bush. A "find" of these were recently discovered by an ex-Topps employee. I would say over 50 at the minimum, and all of these are NOT the white house version. I know who some of the sellers are that got these recent cards, so if you want to pm me with whom you purchased it from, I can almost with certainty tell you if it was from this "find".

Interesting...was this found while they were an employee??

[charnick]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

I have a 1990 Bush. A "find" of these were recently discovered by an ex-Topps employee. I would say over 50 at the minimum, and all of these are NOT the white house version. I know who some of the sellers are that got these recent cards, so if you want to pm me with whom you purchased it from, I can almost with certainty tell you if it was from this "find".

PM coming your way!

[charnick]

btw, THE(NEXT)LEVEL... does yours still have a glossy, almost Tiffany-like finish on yours, or is it matte like the other 40,000,000 1990 Topps cards?

[ktemme]

Here is an interesting article by PSA on the topic. Perhaps you've already seen it, and this can serve as a good reference for other collectors.

[charnick]

I had seen and read that article many times, and here's the rub: while they say:

"The vast majority of the authentic 1990 Topps George Bush cards circulating in the marketplace look and feel just like a regular 1990 Topps card."

This is not completely true. In fact, in an e-mail I got from PSA customer service this morning, they pointed me to the same link, but at the same time said: "The regular cards still have a glossy finish, but not the thick coating that the White House version has."

So either the "regular" Bush card looks like the regular ones, or they don't! Which one is it, PSA?!?!

[dthimesch]

Such a great read so far OP. .

I've alway found this card interesting but know nothing about them so its nice to learn reading through this thread so far. Im hoping someone that knows them comes along and can give information for you as well

While reading though your OP, The first thing that came to mind when talking about the crossover was to crack it and send it in raw. (which you ended up doing) just sucks that it then ended up being a non-whitehouse version. Really sucks that it is going to be soooo easy for someone to be able to get duped by the BGS label claiming some are white house versions.

gmrson raises the question on why it was graded by BGS when basically all the white house versions that popped up were graded by PSA at the same time. Makes me think the person knew what he had and graded it with BGS so he could get the "white house" label attached to try to increase profits.

Good luck in your research OP, I'll be looking in as well

[charnick]

Originally Posted by dthimesch

Such a great read so far OP. .

I've alway found this card interesting but know nothing about them so its nice to learn reading through this thread so far. Im hoping someone that knows them comes along and can give information for you as well

While reading though your OP, The first thing that came to mind when talking about the crossover was to crack it and send it in raw. (which you ended up doing) just sucks that it then ended up being a non-whitehouse version. Really sucks that it is going to be soooo easy for someone to be able to get duped by the BGS label claiming some are white house versions.

gmrson raises the question on why it was graded by BGS when basically all the white house versions that popped up were graded by PSA at the same time. Makes me think the person knew what he had and graded it with BGS so he could get the "white house" label attached to try to increase profits.

Good luck in your research OP, I'll be looking in as well

Thanks! So many ins and outs to the whole story, and I've found myself asking many of the same questions as you guys and many more throughout this process...

PSA's pop report has 14 White House versions, and according to their own web articles, 11 of those were submitted by John Sununu, elder Bush's Chief of Staff himself. So he's got provenance for sure... that leaves 3 others unaccounted for, possibly submitted by another Bush staffer on Sununu's recommendation, who's to say? BGS has graded 11 "regular" versions and 9 "Glossy" versions. Are all 9 of those White House versions? Well, we know at least mine is NOT, so it only makes sense to assume some, if not all, of the others are NOT either.

I'm still trying to establish that ALL the "regular" versions also have some type of Tiffany-esque glossy coat, seeing as how PSA told me directly this morning that they do. I just want to get additional confirmation from someone who owns one. This will lead me to potentially confirming my working theory that BGS, upon finding out about the two different versions, have started slabbing these "regular-glossy" versions with their additional notation, even though they're most definitely NOT the White House version. It's not like they've seen so many come through the door that they would know the difference between one in front of them, and one they may have graded years earlier before the variation was discovered. Additionally, it's not like the 3 major TPG's share info on rare cards such as these to prevent these kinds of issues from arising.

So it appears to me that if BGS is slabbing the same style cards with different notations, unscrupulous sellers will take advantage of that fact and pitch their items as WH when they're not. This is apparently what happened to me.

[dthimesch]

Have you ever reached out to any of the sellers on ebay to see if they knew more about the card they have for sale?

Originally Posted by charnick

PSA's pop report has 14 White House versions, and according to their own web articles, 11 of those were submitted by John Sununu, elder Bush's Chief of Staff himself. So he's got provenance for sure... that leaves 3 others unaccounted for, possibly submitted by another Bush staffer on Sununu's recommendation, who's to say? BGS has graded 11 "regular" versions and 9 "Glossy" versions. Are all 9 of those White House versions? Well, we know at least mine is NOT, so it only makes sense to assume some, if not all, of the others are NOT either.

This alone would almost make me believe that none of the ones BGS graded are actually the white house version. ugh... VERY VERY good to know for someone that is going to look at purchasing one that is in a BGS slab through ebay though

[charnick]

Originally Posted by dthimesch

Have you ever reached out to any of the sellers on ebay to see if they knew more about the card they have for sale?

This I haven't done yet... the only other BGS Glossy version on eBay right now is an autographed version that the seller is asking a mere $19,998 for.

1990 Topps USA1 George Bush Auto Glossy Presidential Copy 1 1 BVG 8 Signature 9 | eBay

From the pix the seller posted (and on the original auction listed below), it's possible this is an actual WH version, as the coating does appear to extend past the edge of the top of the card (not to mention having the President's auto on it!)

From my other research online, I found the original auction that this card was purchased from:

Lot Detail - 1990 Topps Autographed George Bush Glossy (Presidential Copy) BVG 8 (Signature BVG 9)

They seem to note that the "Glossy" coating is indeed what makes this the WH version, but there's no real way to establish that for certain. They could just be going along with BGS slab notation as well. There's no way, other than for the person who obtained the autograph, to determine when this was signed by the elder Bush. It does indeed complicate matters.

I'll try to contact the seller on eBay to see if I can get any more info regarding the type of coating this card has.

Originally Posted by dthimesch

This alone would almost make me believe that none of the ones BGS graded are actually the white house version. ugh... VERY VERY good to know for someone that is going to look at purchasing one that is in a BGS slab through ebay though

Yes indeed... one of the reasons I'm trying to get down to the bottom of this is to prevent anything like this happening again!

[Joe Light]

Wow, very interesting situation. Either way, congrats on a sweet card! I looked on ebay and there are not very many of those available at all.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by charnick

btw, THE(NEXT)LEVEL... does yours still have a glossy, almost Tiffany-like finish on yours, or is it matte like the other 40,000,000 1990 Topps cards?

It does look "glossier" but I know it's not the White House edition.

[DSizzle31]

F'n Big Boyd. That guy will stop at nothing to line his pockets.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by THE(NEXT)LEVEL

It does look "glossier" but I know it's not the White House edition.

This is great info to have! I'm now convinced of two things:

1) PSA needs to update their web articles to mention that the regular versions do indeed appear glossy, rather than saying they look like standard 1990 Topps issues... and

B) BGS, because of the discovery of the variation, have started notating new submissions as glossy, making two variations of BGS slabs, even though the cards contained in all of them are the regular version.

and as a corollary to that, these two different BGS slabs have empowered unscrupulous sellers to claim theirs is the WH version when in fact they're not.

[charnick]

Originally Posted by DSizzle31

F'n Big Boyd. That guy will stop at nothing to line his pockets.

Make my previous post read: certain of three things. this is the third.

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by DSizzle31

F'n Big Boyd. That guy will stop at nothing to line his pockets.

I don't think its Boyd, I think it's who he is selling it for, or who sold it to him.