The Trout as "modern day Mantle" comparison - Page 2

WhyMarinersWhy · 03-28-2019, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caflisch78

Honestly, after age 31 Junior's career was pretty forgetful. Lots of nagging injuries, etc. I think he made 3 ASG's in those 10 seasons. Did most of his damage in his 20's.

Totally agree. Seattle lucked out in that they got all of his best years before he went to Cincy. Of course, they did bring him back at the end of his career when he was totally washed up and had gotten to be about the size of Sabathia.

Ferg1945 · 03-28-2019, 04:23 PM

For those curious....and talking about how Griffey was a 5 tool player and all that....

After 12 seasons...11 with Mariners and 1 with the Reds

Griffey Jr had a 76.2 Career WAR....after his 8th season Trout has 64.2

WhyMarinersWhy · 03-28-2019, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirTommyWinAlot

ok cool but comparison to Mickey Mantle?

Mickey was a NEW YORK YANKEE. He's won several world series championships. There's more aura and mystique around Mickey Mantle.

I think Trout gets compared to Mantle because they play(ed) the same position and both have similar games. If you look at Mantle and Trout's numbers side-by-side there are a lot of similarities. Some differences too, Trout strikes out more but steals more bases, etc. But overall they look like the same type of player.

Mantle certainly has him beat on rings, but being on those Yankee teams was as much good fortune for Mantle as anything. Trout hasn't had the luxury of being on anything approaching those old Yankee teams (although I guess after signing this extension you could say it's now his own choosing).

Ferg1945 · 03-28-2019, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirTommyWinAlot

ok cool but comparison to Mickey Mantle?

Mickey was a NEW YORK YANKEE. He's won several world series championships. There's more aura and mystique around Mickey Mantle.

You can't compare a GREAT team to a team that hasn't played in the playoffs at all. Trout is only one guy... he doesn't pitch... and only gets 4-5 ABs a game. He isn't LeBron, Jordan, Brady, Manning etc... those guys can singlehandedly bring a team back by swing the momentum in their teams favor.... it's virtually impoosible to do that in baseball.

Compare player to player. Right now Trout is on pace to be the best ever in Career WAR.

caflisch78 · 03-28-2019, 04:39 PM

Nothing compares to being a Yankee... one of the oldest organizations dating back over 115 years in one of the most densely populated places in all of America. Yankee lore and the popularity of winning the most championships puts Yankee greats in their own category. So comparing anyone today to one of those guys who already completed a 20+ season career with multiple championships and a HOFer is a pretty one sided argument.

The point is that Trout is really the only guy in today's game that you can make an argument for against those greats due to his trajectory. So I think the comparison, although highly skewed, is fair vs. all other available options.

dfd · 03-28-2019, 06:11 PM

Mantles' first 14 seasons with the Yankees, they won 12 Pennants and 7 World Series Championships! Mantle WAS the driving force behind all of those Yankee teams. Berra, Ford, even Maris were great ballplayers but Mantle was the LEADER. Trout is a great player, no doubt about that. But when he leads his team to multiple Championships, then, maybe, we can talk about him as an equal to Mantle!

Ferg1945 · 03-28-2019, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfd

Mantles' first 14 seasons with the Yankees, they won 12 Pennants and 7 World Series Championships! Mantle WAS the driving force behind all of those Yankee teams. Berra, Ford, even Maris were great ballplayers but Mantle was the LEADER. Trout is a great player, no doubt about that. But when he leads his team to multiple Championships, then, maybe, we can talk about him as an equal to Mantle!

The Yankees had no pitching? It was all The Mick?

caflisch78 · 03-28-2019, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferg1945

The Yankees had no pitching? It was all The Mick?

6 HOFers in some of those lineups but it was all Mick.

Ferg1945 · 03-28-2019, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caflisch78

6 HOFers in some of those lineups but it was all Mick.

Mantle made them HOFers!!

caflisch78 · 03-28-2019, 06:34 PM

To Trout's credit, he did have an aging HOF'er with a negative WAR protecting him for a few seasons. Pretty comparable right??

The game is different 60 years later anyhow. Comparing isn't fair to either player imo.

mcgoo2 · 03-28-2019, 06:59 PM

I think there's a difference between the cultural impact and on the field impact. In terms of performance on the field, Trout is up there with the best. He belongs with Mantle imo.

Culturally, I think he's pretty far behind having an impact like Mantle or even Griffey. Mantle was a handsome, outgoing HOFer who played for the most popular team in baseball in the golden era of the sport. Griffey made baseball cool again.

Trout, while an amazing player, hasn't impacted popularity of the sport like the other two. Kind of like how Willie Mays gets treated like chopped liver compared to Mantle despite having been just as good on the field.

dfd · 03-28-2019, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caflisch78

6 HOFers in some of those lineups but it was all Mick.

Yes, as I mentioned: Berra and Ford. DiMaggio played his final season (1951) with Mantle. He was at the end of his career and over the hill.
Phil Rizzuto was another HOFer who was inducted into the hall probably more for his broadcasting skills than his mediocre playing skills.
Jerry Coleman (see Rizzuto above)
Enos Slaughter played with the Yankees in the mid to late 50's as a part time over the hill player.
Johnny Mize (see Enos Slaughter above)
That is the list of HOFers that Mantle played with!

Neal · 03-28-2019, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfd

Mantles' first 14 seasons with the Yankees, they won 12 Pennants and 7 World Series Championships! Mantle WAS the driving force behind all of those Yankee teams. Berra, Ford, even Maris were great ballplayers but Mantle was the LEADER. Trout is a great player, no doubt about that. But when he leads his team to multiple Championships, then, maybe, we can talk about him as an equal to Mantle!

The YANKEES had a great run, and probably would have had success without Mantle. Maybe more with Trout

dfd · 03-28-2019, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal

The YANKEES had a great run, and probably would have had success without Mantle. Maybe more with Trout

Hard to do better than 12 Championships out of 14 years but we'll never know.
Mantle, Ford and Berra were the only 3 Yankee Players there for all of them!

nicepakryan · 03-28-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caflisch78

Honestly, after age 31 Junior's career was pretty forgetful. Lots of nagging injuries, etc. I think he made 3 ASG's in those 10 seasons. Did most of his damage in his 20's.

Trout has been injury prone the last 3 years. I haven’t looked at the numbers but I would say Trout and Griffey have similar stats early in there career.

rats60 · 03-28-2019, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal

The YANKEES had a great run, and probably would have had success without Mantle. Maybe more with Trout

How did they do from 1965-1975 when Mantle was slowed by injuries and after he retired? They had a great teams from 49-53, but after that they aren't winning championships without Mantle. Let me know when Trout hits his 18th WS HR or drives in his 40th run in a WS. Mantle was clutch, Trout not so much. Now I'll wait for more excuses.

caflisch78 · 03-28-2019, 10:05 PM

So through their age 27 seasons, Mantle had 280 HR in 1246 games. Trout has 240 in 1065 games. Trout missed a handful of games the last couple seasons otherwise they would be neck and neck in HR alone. Will Trout hit 500 HR? If he stays healthy, the answer is undoubtedly.

Trout HR every 4.43 games
Mantle HR every 4.45 games

66_Fiat · 03-28-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caflisch78

So through their age 27 seasons, Mantle had 280 HR in 1246 games. Trout has 240 in 1065 games. Trout missed a handful of games the last couple seasons otherwise they would be neck and neck in HR alone. Will Trout hit 500 HR? If he stays healthy, the answer is undoubtedly.

Trout HR every 4.43 games
Mantle HR every 4.45 games

Throwing out the PED guys, analytics say a player needs a minimum of 250 HRs by their age 30 season to reach 500. I say he's a lock for 500, and a good shot at 600 depending on how the next 4 years go.

3,000 hits is definitely in reach, but will rely more on his longevity than absolute skill set. Mantle didn't get to 3K.

As for all the championships, I have heard that Berra had more sway on leading the Yankees than Mantle. Mantle was just the star, not a leader.

k13 · 03-29-2019, 12:39 AM

Griffey hit 50 hrs 140rbi and stole bases plus great defense

Stop talking about WAR since Trout is just an average ball player.

WAR means #@#@#@#@.

Made up stat to make you feel good about your hero.

caflisch78 · 03-29-2019, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k13

Griffey hit 50 hrs 140rbi and stole bases plus great defense

Stop talking about WAR since Trout is just an average ball player.

WAR means #@#@#@#@.

Made up stat to make you feel good about your hero.

Just an average ball player ... with one more MVP then KGJ, 8 seasons in...

BTW, Trout finished runner up to a guy with a top 20 all time WAR season (Betts) and the only modern day triple crown (Miggy) or else he'd have 4.

And if you go back to KGJ's second best season where he hit .284 with 120 Runs 56 Home Runs with 147 RBI's....... he finished 4th in MVP, lol. Different era's guys!! Those stats would run away with MVP any year in the last decade.

caflisch78 · 03-29-2019, 01:19 AM

No one can deny that this is a pretty epic start to a career!

AS,MVP-2,RoY-1,SS
AS,MVP-2,SS
AS,MVP-1,SS
AS,MVP-2,SS
AS,MVP-1,SS
AS,MVP-4 - Missed 48 games due to injury
AS,MVP-2,SS - Missed 22 games due to injury

caflisch78 · 03-29-2019, 01:22 AM

Or this one! (Mantle for funsies)

AS,MVP-3
AS,MVP-22 - Missed 35 games due to injury
AS,MVP-15
AS,MVP-5
AS,MVP-1
AS,MVP-1
AS,MVP-5

KhalDrogo · 03-29-2019, 02:36 AM

Not sure why you guys bother arguing the trolls who,

1. Make the same arguments over and over again.
2. Don’t understand baseball.

awz50 · 03-29-2019, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k13

Griffey hit 50 hrs 140rbi and stole bases plus great defense

Stop talking about WAR since Trout is just an average ball player.

WAR means #@#@#@#@.

Made up stat to make you feel good about your hero.

Ignore this troll

dream34 · 03-29-2019, 03:19 AM

The thing with Trout not being a winner and still being generationally priced is that it is actually setting up maybe for the all time price bump if/when he does make a title push. It’s one of the all time highest risk/reward scenarios. On one hand to expect him to continue this level is not a wise bet and there most likely will be a cool down a few years from now. On the other, he’s already priced this way and has won absolutely nothing. Just like Brady’s titles have been adding on to already all time high values or Lebrons Cavs title added on to already high values Trout actually has a trump card to play if he can make that title run.

In the end though I think he’ll have to pull at least one title to maintain these values. WAR is great but that alone will be a weak argument when comparing him to the all time greats. So much of his value seems tied to his WAR accomplishments so far. It (WAR) is the same stat that will tell you that Matt Chapman was much better than Lindor, Jose Ramirez or Alex Bergman last season. I love Matt Chapman a lot more than others but I’m pretty sure the Indians or Astros are laughing if the A’s offer up Chapman for any of those players. And I’m more than sure none of you would trade your Lindor or Bregman Chrome for a Chapman Chrome.

03-28-2019, 04:39 PM	#30
caflisch78 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6,885	Nothing compares to being a Yankee... one of the oldest organizations dating back over 115 years in one of the most densely populated places in all of America. Yankee lore and the popularity of winning the most championships puts Yankee greats in their own category. So comparing anyone today to one of those guys who already completed a 20+ season career with multiple championships and a HOFer is a pretty one sided argument. The point is that Trout is really the only guy in today's game that you can make an argument for against those greats due to his trajectory. So I think the comparison, although highly skewed, is fair vs. all other available options. __________________ I collect Mike Trout RC and Prospect cards Follow me below for a view of my PC IG: https://www.instagram.com/caflisch78/

03-28-2019, 06:34 PM	#35
caflisch78 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6,885	To Trout's credit, he did have an aging HOF'er with a negative WAR protecting him for a few seasons. Pretty comparable right?? The game is different 60 years later anyhow. Comparing isn't fair to either player imo. __________________ I collect Mike Trout RC and Prospect cards Follow me below for a view of my PC IG: https://www.instagram.com/caflisch78/

03-28-2019, 06:59 PM	#36
mcgoo2 Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 2,542 mcgoo202	I think there's a difference between the cultural impact and on the field impact. In terms of performance on the field, Trout is up there with the best. He belongs with Mantle imo. Culturally, I think he's pretty far behind having an impact like Mantle or even Griffey. Mantle was a handsome, outgoing HOFer who played for the most popular team in baseball in the golden era of the sport. Griffey made baseball cool again. Trout, while an amazing player, hasn't impacted popularity of the sport like the other two. Kind of like how Willie Mays gets treated like chopped liver compared to Mantle despite having been just as good on the field. __________________ Always looking for Minnesota Twins cards/memorabilia!! My Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/151462415@N06/albums

03-28-2019, 10:05 PM	#42
caflisch78 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6,885	So through their age 27 seasons, Mantle had 280 HR in 1246 games. Trout has 240 in 1065 games. Trout missed a handful of games the last couple seasons otherwise they would be neck and neck in HR alone. Will Trout hit 500 HR? If he stays healthy, the answer is undoubtedly. Trout HR every 4.43 games Mantle HR every 4.45 games __________________ I collect Mike Trout RC and Prospect cards Follow me below for a view of my PC IG: https://www.instagram.com/caflisch78/

03-29-2019, 01:19 AM	#46
caflisch78 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6,885	No one can deny that this is a pretty epic start to a career! AS,MVP-2,RoY-1,SS AS,MVP-2,SS AS,MVP-1,SS AS,MVP-2,SS AS,MVP-1,SS AS,MVP-4 - Missed 48 games due to injury AS,MVP-2,SS - Missed 22 games due to injury __________________ I collect Mike Trout RC and Prospect cards Follow me below for a view of my PC IG: https://www.instagram.com/caflisch78/

03-28-2019, 04:23 PM	#27
Ferg1945 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Midwest Posts: 14,720	For those curious....and talking about how Griffey was a 5 tool player and all that.... After 12 seasons...11 with Mariners and 1 with the Reds Griffey Jr had a 76.2 Career WAR....after his 8th season Trout has 64.2

03-28-2019, 06:11 PM	#31
dfd Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Florida/Michigan Posts: 1,289 djchene	Mantles' first 14 seasons with the Yankees, they won 12 Pennants and 7 World Series Championships! Mantle WAS the driving force behind all of those Yankee teams. Berra, Ford, even Maris were great ballplayers but Mantle was the LEADER. Trout is a great player, no doubt about that. But when he leads his team to multiple Championships, then, maybe, we can talk about him as an equal to Mantle!

03-29-2019, 12:39 AM	#44
k13 Banned Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 12,617	Griffey hit 50 hrs 140rbi and stole bases plus great defense Stop talking about WAR since Trout is just an average ball player. WAR means #@#@#@#@. Made up stat to make you feel good about your hero.

03-29-2019, 01:22 AM	#47
caflisch78 Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6,885	Or this one! (Mantle for funsies) AS,MVP-3 AS,MVP-22 - Missed 35 games due to injury AS,MVP-15 AS,MVP-5 AS,MVP-1 AS,MVP-1 AS,MVP-5 __________________ I collect Mike Trout RC and Prospect cards Follow me below for a view of my PC IG: https://www.instagram.com/caflisch78/

03-29-2019, 02:36 AM	#48
KhalDrogo Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 41,097	Not sure why you guys bother arguing the trolls who, 1. Make the same arguments over and over again. 2. Don’t understand baseball. __________________ I love PSA!

03-29-2019, 03:19 AM	#50
dream34 Member Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,983	The thing with Trout not being a winner and still being generationally priced is that it is actually setting up maybe for the all time price bump if/when he does make a title push. It’s one of the all time highest risk/reward scenarios. On one hand to expect him to continue this level is not a wise bet and there most likely will be a cool down a few years from now. On the other, he’s already priced this way and has won absolutely nothing. Just like Brady’s titles have been adding on to already all time high values or Lebrons Cavs title added on to already high values Trout actually has a trump card to play if he can make that title run. In the end though I think he’ll have to pull at least one title to maintain these values. WAR is great but that alone will be a weak argument when comparing him to the all time greats. So much of his value seems tied to his WAR accomplishments so far. It (WAR) is the same stat that will tell you that Matt Chapman was much better than Lindor, Jose Ramirez or Alex Bergman last season. I love Matt Chapman a lot more than others but I’m pretty sure the Indians or Astros are laughing if the A’s offer up Chapman for any of those players. And I’m more than sure none of you would trade your Lindor or Bregman Chrome for a Chapman Chrome.