$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein

[mjohnatgt]

May be time for blowout to make an Altered Cards subforum.

[Mattsurewood]

Terrible news, but I can say I am the proud owner of a TRUE PSA 8.5! I put it out for sale at the Chantilly Show with a high price, and, at this point, I’m glad no one bought it!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by superdan49

The only thing longer than the list of trimmed cards linked to Kevin Burge is his rap sheet. Even I'm amazed at this particular find, and it takes a lot to shock me with card trimming.

But people can change while the hobby is changing according to PWCC..

[Big35Hurt]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

LMAO keep hugging your slabs guys lolololol. Great work OP as usual!!

Haha....now this is funny....and true.

[Halebop]

For sentimental reasons I recently decided to grade an off center 1984 Donruss Darryl Strawberry rookie that I pulled out of a pack many years ago. PSA refused to grade it saying it did not meet the minimum size requirement. Of course the card may have been a smaller size based on inconsistencies in production back in the day, but how can they pay close attention to a $5 card and miss cards that are $1,000 plus? I want to believe that a few people at PSA are in on this scam, otherwise I have to believe the company as a whole is nearly worthless to the hobby

[Vladdy Jr]

Why is this PSA’s fault? Beckett has graded a fair share of trimmed cards.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Vladdy Jr

Why is this PSA’s fault? Beckett has graded a fair share of trimmed cards.

No one said it was strictly PSA's fault. It's both due to the negligence and greed of PSA and BGS. Funny how any PSA happens and the defenders come out in droves.

[HarryLime]

The idea that one of the grading companies is "in on it" is comical. Yes, we're talking about a significant problem in the hobby, but it's still just a molecule in a drop in the bucket of the hobby as a whole.

I think we're looking at both a new, more accurate method of trimming but also a combination of rebuilding edges and corners so that they don't have to necessarily trim every time or, at the very least, only trim the slightest amount that wouldn't trigger concern from a grader. I think it's a mistake to look at these cards through the eyes of conventional altering techniques.

Keep in mind, the people accepting consignments, scanning cards and creating listings for PWCC are almost certainly minimum-wage data entry positions that probably have no background in the hobby. They're dealing with tens of thousands of cards a week. I am the furthest thing from a PWCC apologist but it's just not realistic to expect them to go over all their consignments with a loupe to double-check that the TPGers opinion was correct. That's not their job and they don't have that expertise.

Arthur

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

No one said it was strictly PSA's fault. It's both due to the negligence and greed of PSA and BGS. Funny how any PSA happens and the defenders come out in droves.

There's no need to make personal attacks on people.

Folks, this isn't new. As long as there is money to be made, there will be people trying to game the system. Anyone here old enough to remember WIWAG? Nefarious people do nefarious deeds and the TPGers adapt. They're going to have to adapt to this.

Arthur

[tier1dc]

Originally Posted by Mattsurewood

Terrible news, but I can say I am the proud owner of a TRUE PSA 8.5! I put it out for sale at the Chantilly Show with a high price, and, at this point, I’m glad no one bought it!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

time to bust out those scissors and get yourself a PSA 10.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Keep in mind, the people accepting consignments, scanning cards and creating listings for PWCC are almost certainly minimum-wage data entry positions that probably have no background in the hobby. They're dealing with tens of thousands of cards a week. I am the furthest thing from a PWCC apologist but it's just not realistic to expect them to go over all their consignments with a loupe to double-check that the TPGers opinion was correct. That's not their job and they don't have that expertise.

Agreed, but the rising success and presence of PWCC in the hobby since 2013 and trimmed cards are inseparable narratives. If PWCC doesn't realize that, they can stay tuned. If they do, they aren't letting on and everyone else can stay tuned.


ETA: If I had a business that was largely supported by fraud, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night, and would take immediate, swift, and public action to reach out to customers. Do we see any of that?

[Rooftop]

Auction Integrity & Oversight

Safeguarding the integrity of bidding on our auctions is our highest priority, as is the assurance that every item we broker is accurately described and authentic. For the trading card marketplace to function effectively, honesty and integrity must be ensured. Collectors deserve a bidding environment that is 100% legitimate and free from intervention by the auction house, consignors, friends of consignors, friends of the auction house, or anyone else who seeks to exert artificial influence over the sale price.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Keep in mind, the people accepting consignments, scanning cards and creating listings for PWCC are almost certainly minimum-wage data entry positions that probably have no background in the hobby. They're dealing with tens of thousands of cards a week. I am the furthest thing from a PWCC apologist but it's just not realistic to expect them to go over all their consignments with a loupe to double-check that the TPGers opinion was correct. That's not their job and they don't have that expertise.

Arthur

Do you not think that PWCC should do their due diligence and slow down their influx on cards and do proper investigations instead of it being a work-line condition where everything is processed and then you get these posted as soon as possible.

I think that is what the issue is. PWCC should take the time instead of rushing to post all these cards. Maybe hire a 3rd party member to check for alterations based on worthpoint and other previous selling. But we both know why nothing like that will ever happen. It cuts into their bottom line of money.

[ThoseBackPages]

collecting is a scam

[HarryLime]

As I said, I am by no means a PWCC apologist. I have my own bones to pick with them. But it's ludicrous to suggest that they should be screening every individual consignment as though they are a third-party grader. That's not their job, not the service they are providing, and by no means something they are even remotely trained or staffed to accurately do.

These demands that they should stop accepting business until they can guarantee 100% that no altered cards or no shilled auctions exist are just immature. Those are impossible and unrealistic demands that can never be achieved no matter what efforts are put forth. I see people making demands without actually putting forth real-world business methods to achieve them. Are the Ps shady? Heck yeah. But the idea that they're "in on it," like the TPGers, is also comical. This is a case of a group of nefarious people taking advantage of a system that hasn't caught up to their nefarious methods yet.

Even if the Ps ban each of the trimmers from consigning, they'll just consign under a different name. This needs to be rooted out at the core. High-dollar cards need to be cross-referenced by both image and serial-number by previous sales, much like what the OP is doing. A database needs to be built and maintained. So when they receive a big money card they can quickly see what it has looked like in the past and easily spot alterations even if their current detecting methods don't.

Arthur

[IgnatiusJReilly]

This is exactly the kind of thing that’s pushing me out of the high end modern side of the hobby. I honestly can’t really spot the difference between mint and gem mint in many cards, so the premiums people pay for a psa 10 over a well-centered 9 never made much sense.

I remember one of the big reasons I left the hobby in my teens was the dbags at shows who just wanted to make money and treat people/kids like crap. It’s a cardboard picture of men who play a game for God’s sake! This makes me feel the same way.

I’ve been planning to sell my high end modern cards for a while to move back towards mid-grade vintage where I trust my eye much more than a grader’s. This might be the last straw. Thanks for opening my eyes OP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Vladdy Jr

Why is this PSA’s fault? Beckett has graded a fair share of trimmed cards.

Nobody is at fault unless one blames a grading company for their opinion.

That’s because a grade is only a grading company’s opinion of the condition of a card.

The amount of faith in a grading company’s opinion clearly needs to change. It needs to be trimmed.

Most seem to want everyone and everything *else* about grading to change, except how they view it. Change is hard, particularly when related to self-interest, but in this case it would help the hobby.

There will always be some issues with a grading company’s opinion, we can only hope they do their best to help the hobby.

[pryantexas]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Card is POP 5 in PSA 10. At least 4 of the 5 are trimmed. I cannot find the fifth copy. Clearly, gem copies of this card should not exist.

All these cards were in massive PSA subs that had most/all of the cards funneled through PWCC or Probstein. As I continue to post these threads, it will become more evident that the success of PWCC, and to a lesser extent Probstein, is built upon selling altered cards.

Cards appear to originate from the list of usual suspects. One is confirmed to originate from Kevin Burge.

3 are from PWCC. 1 is from Probstein.



#1
Pre: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...yce-1933378417
Post: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1738486

I am the current owner of this card. I bought it from PWCC via ebay on 8/30/18

I have reached out to Betsy and am very confident that they will take back the card and issue me a full credit.

If they don't, I will be pursuing legal action

(FYI I'm traveling and will be away from this thread for a bit but will update when I hear back from PWCC)

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by pryantexas

I am the current owner of this card. I bought it from PWCC via ebay on 8/30/18

I have reached out to Betsy and am very confident that they will take back the card and issue me a full credit.

If they don't, I will be pursuing legal action

(FYI I'm traveling and will be away from this thread for a bit but will update when I hear back from PWCC)

Hope you get it settled. Thank you for posting.

[LVDan]

All of this garbage makes me just thankful that I don’t place much of a premium of graded modern cards. As stated by some above, I truly think it has a rightful place in the world of vintage cards, cards that were made before people cared about condition.

Having one of these companies declare their opinion about the difference between mint and gem mint on a modern card to the tune of multiple x difference in cash value? What could possible go wrong? Smh

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Hope you get it settled. Thank you for posting.

Unfortunately, this is the second time pryantexas has gotten hit with a trimmed PSA card. I knew I remembered his name from somewhere:

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1266151&page=3

[psd2k10]

I wonder how many vintage cards have been trimmed and graded! This really really sucks and definitely puts a huge dent on the hobby. And its all done by outsiders non true collectors that care more about making money. zero respect for baseball and the hobby as a whole!

[psd2k10]

And this is one of the main reasons why i mostly collect cards i pull myself. You just cant really trust whats out there.

[SaveMeTheGum]

One of my favorite all time movies is The Big Short. No matter what type of corruption/fraud is taking place, it's always follows a similar model. I see a lot of parallels between these situation and what happens in the movie (bascially, what happened in real life). I'll leave names out of this since we all know who is who.

Trimmers:
First and foremost, the blame falls to those actually creating the problem in the first place. These are usually the scum of the earth who are good at creating problems, profiting greatly from them, and then quickly distancing themselves from those problems. Luckily, they are usally dumb enough to think they can never get caught and leave a trail of breadcrumbs (most are found on the Beckett Industry forum invitee list...). These are the CDO managers from the movie. In real life, Wing Chau was indicted and ends up crying on the stand. How wonderful would that be if it was the trimmers:

"You think I'm a parasite Mr. Baum, but apparently society values me very much. Let's do this, I'll tell you how much I'm worth if you tell me how much your worth".

Grading companies:
These are the companies that are paid to ensure the integrity of the product(s). They sell "trust". But if they are too incompetent, or worse involved in the faud, the fraud becomes legit and grows along with profits exponentially.

"If we don't give them the ratings, they'll go to Moody's. Right down the block. If we don't work with them, they will go to our competitors"

Consigment companies:
These are the ones that bring the fraudulent products to the unsuspecting masses. It's not their fault, right? They didn't trim the cards. They didn't grade the cards. They are just helping people sell them. They use their credibility and marketing to build up their brand and leverage that to sell a "High End" product, but assume no responsibility for what they are doing. Much like the mortgage brokers.

"I used to be a bar tender and now I own a boat!"


Detectives:
The ones that see what's going on and call bulls*$%. If only there was a way to profit off of taking down the trimmers like in Steve Eisman (Mark Baum) and Michael Burry.

"We live in an era of fraud in America. Not just in banking, but in government, education, religion, food, even baseball... What bothers me isn't that fraud is not nice. Or that fraud is mean. For fifteen thousand years, fraud and short sighted thinking have never, ever worked. Not once. Eventually, you get caught, things go south. "

[ark8085]

Hope you get reimbursed pryantexas. Usually the good guys who get the short end of the stick..