Group sub wrongly taken - Felony Theft - Page 2

TheBlake58 · 08-09-2021, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleuk21

It sounds like that already happened? Subber agreed to pay 14k, waive grading fees, and send back the other 9 cards (I assume 5k-ish value?). Based on that, OP is made whole minus the disappointment of not being able to keep any. That sucks of course, but sounds like he is made whole in terms of dollars. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Defining "made whole" in this situation is very tricky. How does one determine? Especially since I did NOT want to sell the cards now. Like I said, I collect these players and I believe in them long term. For those reasons, I believe the value will go up (especially when Haaland starts banging in goals again).
Additionally, if you list 15 of the same cards all at once, you will drive down comps. This is what he did (I believe). So figuring out comps is tricky in this instance.
I would not say I am made whole here. No way. I took what I could to easy the stress of the situation as it was weighing on me heavily.

jbball50 · 08-09-2021, 09:31 AM

Lawsuit for the subber, jail time for the person who knew they stole your cards and then sold them.

kyleuk21 · 08-09-2021, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Defining "made whole" in this situation is very tricky. How does one determine? Especially since I did NOT want to sell the cards now. Like I said, I collect these players and I believe in them long term. For those reasons, I believe the value will go up (especially when Haaland starts banging in goals again).
Additionally, if you list 15 of the same cards all at once, you will drive down comps. This is what he did (I believe). So figuring out comps is tricky in this instance.
I would not say I am made whole here. No way. I took what I could to easy the stress of the situation as it was weighing on me heavily.

Potential long-term gains are just speculation, so you can't effectively put a dollar amount on that. But I totally get what you're saying and don't disagree. I would feel the same way as you if it happened to me.

Kobe101 · 08-09-2021, 09:38 AM

Sorry OP.

RedBeard pretending that such a unique lot of cards was his is legendary scammer status.

I recall KK having another issue not that long ago. They need to get more organized or take in less cards.

jcardstore · 08-09-2021, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Defining "made whole" in this situation is very tricky. How does one determine? Especially since I did NOT want to sell the cards now. Like I said, I collect these players and I believe in them long term. For those reasons, I believe the value will go up (especially when Haaland starts banging in goals again).
Additionally, if you list 15 of the same cards all at once, you will drive down comps. This is what he did (I believe). So figuring out comps is tricky in this instance.
I would not say I am made whole here. No way. I took what I could to easy the stress of the situation as it was weighing on me heavily.

all of this is subjective

auctionjmm · 08-09-2021, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyleuk21

Potential long-term gains are just speculation, so you can't effectively put a dollar amount on that. But I totally get what you're saying and don't disagree. I would feel the same way as you if it happened to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcardstore

all of this is subjective

Yeah, I think this situation would be treated similar to an insurance claim if it actually went to court. You get the value of today, not future probability.

It's even worse for car accident victims as they all eventually need to accept a settlement for their pain even if nobody can accurately put a price on future pain. A good friend of mine is going through this now. OP may never be "made whole" in that sense, but it sounds like he's getting the best deal he can given the circumstances.

herbc · 08-09-2021, 09:55 AM

Just my 2 cents…. I believe you already settled. Once you accepted, case closed.

SlickRick · 08-09-2021, 10:08 AM

Definitely send this to cardporn on Instagram to get the story out

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

irfuji · 08-09-2021, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herbc

Just my 2 cents…. I believe you already settled. Once you accepted, case closed.

The civil side is settled between OP and the submitter. But the submitter could continue to go after Redbeard due to the fraud there and recoup the money.

The criminal side could still be pursued if so desired. Personally, I think it should be. Understand that OP just wants to put things behind them. But unless the submitter goes after Redbeard on the civil side, with no criminal action they get away with it and no repercussions.

Jom619 · 08-09-2021, 10:50 AM

Redbeard should respond to this thread

jcardstore · 08-09-2021, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jom619

Redbeard should respond to this thread

Why would he? Literally nothing to gain

jw8 · 08-09-2021, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Why do you not name the group submitter?

Sounds like KK Sports Cards

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Orangejello727 · 08-09-2021, 11:05 AM

The group submitter has admitted error on his side. He owes you fair market value 17k for the cards he did not deliver back to you. Either the money or the card replacements if he thinks the number is not fair. He is the only person you can go after.

Dnic · 08-09-2021, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlickRick

Definitely send this to cardporn on Instagram to get the story out

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Yup I agree it's a dbag move, had to have known it wasn't your submission and still took it then proceeded to sell all cards right away. The redbeard needs to be put on blast for this for sure.

glen87 · 08-09-2021, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orangejello727

The group submitter has admitted error on his side. He owes you fair market value 17k for the cards he did not deliver back to you. Either the money or the card replacements if he thinks the number is not fair. He is the only person you can go after.

this is the case....op has no issue with redbeard (NOTE - I AM NOT SAYING RB IS NOT THE FAULT), but op's contract was with KK, not redbeard. KK would be the one who has to go after redbeard if he chooses.

by accepting the offer, op is now essentially done, and out of the picture.

Dnic · 08-09-2021, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glen87

this is the case....op has no issue with redbeard (NOTE - I AM NOT SAYING RB IS NOT THE FAULT), but op's contract was with KK, not redbeard. KK would be the one who has to go after redbeard if he chooses.

by accepting the offer, op is now essentially done, and out of the picture.

So knowingly accepting property that isn't yours is ok?.....

jcardstore · 08-09-2021, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnic

So knowingly accepting property that isn't yours is ok?.....

Can you not read? That's not even close to what he said

glen87 · 08-09-2021, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnic

So knowingly accepting property that isn't yours is ok?.....

that is not at all what i said.

the victim in this case is not OP, it is KK (by his own fault).

-op had a contract with KK
-KK had possession of the cards
-KK is the one who gave the cards to RB
-RB accepted cards that were not his from KK (this is the act that causes KK to become the victim)

again, op had a contract with KK, not RB. so whatever happens to those cards while in the possession of KK is KK's responsibility, and therefore it is KK's responsibility (not RB) to make restitution with op.

ALLEGEDLY if what op is saying is 100% accurate

TSonn · 08-09-2021, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Defining "made whole" in this situation is very tricky. How does one determine? Especially since I did NOT want to sell the cards now. Like I said, I collect these players and I believe in them long term. For those reasons, I believe the value will go up (especially when Haaland starts banging in goals again).
Additionally, if you list 15 of the same cards all at once, you will drive down comps. This is what he did (I believe). So figuring out comps is tricky in this instance.
I would not say I am made whole here. No way. I took what I could to easy the stress of the situation as it was weighing on me heavily.

I would feel the same way, OP, but there's just no way to put a price on future speculation. Best case scenario is you get fair market value right now and try to buy back the ones you miss the most. If it's fair market value, you should be able to buy most back - who knows, maybe they'll dip some more and you can pick up a few extras.

If it were me, I'd try to buy them all back raw and send off to grading again (maybe a personal sub to CSG?) to double down on future value (with the cards and the slabs).

TheBlake58 · 08-09-2021, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSonn

I would feel the same way, OP, but there's just no way to put a price on future speculation. Best case scenario is you get fair market value right now and try to buy back the ones you miss the most. If it's fair market value, you should be able to buy most back - who knows, maybe they'll dip some more and you can pick up a few extras.

If it were me, I'd try to buy them all back raw and send off to grading again (maybe a personal sub to CSG?) to double down on future value (with the cards and the slabs).

Honestly, my grades on this sub were spectacular. Also, buying back the cards raw will be very costly.
There is no easy solution to this unfortunately. And I get what you're saying about potential future speculation, but I was just making the point that I wouldn't have liquidated immediately like Redbeard did.

Raj3sh · 08-09-2021, 11:32 AM

OP is the haaland /178 #11 red salzburg one? If yes its way more valuable

TSonn · 08-09-2021, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBlake58

Honestly, my grades on this sub were spectacular. Also, buying back the cards raw will be very costly.
There is no easy solution to this unfortunately. And I get what you're saying about potential future speculation, but I was just making the point that I wouldn't have liquidated immediately like Redbeard did.

If you got spectacular grades, wouldn't that mean that they'd be significantly less to buy back raw? I don't know soccer or sticker cards that well but it sounds like you could buy back raw, resub (not with PSA obvi), and come away with extra money in your pocket.

I feel for you OP because this is a nightmare scenario for most of us. It's also unfortunately one of the risks of putting our cards in the mail for whatever reason. Getting reimbursed current FMV is always going to be the best case scenario. I'm guessing if you were to be reimbursed at your PSA DV it would be significantly less than what KK is giving you for FMV?

coltsfan23 · 08-09-2021, 11:46 AM

This is almost completely on KK for simply assuming a high value submission belonged to a frequent submitter rather than properly tracking and organizing before releasing the cards.

There are people who do enough volume where they don't remember or track everything they sent, especially from July 2020. If KK is telling him that he thinks that submission is his, of course he's going to think KK probably knows better if he did not keep his own records of what he sent a year ago.

The true character of a group submitter shows when adversity strikes, not when things go as planned. Be careful who you entrust your cards with.

shrevecity · 08-09-2021, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glen87

that is not at all what i said.

the victim in this case is not OP, it is KK (by his own fault).

-op had a contract with KK
-KK had possession of the cards
-KK is the one who gave the cards to RB
-RB accepted cards that were not his from KK (this is the act that causes KK to become the victim)

again, op had a contract with KK, not RB. so whatever happens to those cards while in the possession of KK is KK's responsibility, and therefore it is KK's responsibility (not RB) to make restitution with op.

ALLEGEDLY if what op is saying is 100% accurate

This is how I see it too. It's just like if I sell an item to you then I never ship and I disappear and ebay is forced to refund you. The victim is not the buyer it is ebay. It would be up to them to pursue whatever but the buyer settled so is agreeing they are happy with the outcome.

LTLurker · 08-09-2021, 11:51 AM

100% on KK. Red beard massive scammer as well. Can be both items.

To have a business like this and not keep records? That is total and absolute blasphemy.

I know Josh & PC are too polite to comment here, but I’d like to hear from a group submitter of that volume to hear how shocked they might be for a fellow submitter to not keep detailed and complete records

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08-09-2021, 11:32 AM	#46
Raj3sh Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 1,165	OP is the haaland /178 #11 red salzburg one? If yes its way more valuable __________________ https://www.instagram.com/manchesterunitedcards/

08-09-2021, 09:31 AM	#27
jbball50 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Washington State Posts: 444 Jonaeite0	Lawsuit for the subber, jail time for the person who knew they stole your cards and then sold them.

08-09-2021, 09:38 AM	#29
Kobe101 Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 3,410	Sorry OP. RedBeard pretending that such a unique lot of cards was his is legendary scammer status. I recall KK having another issue not that long ago. They need to get more organized or take in less cards.

08-09-2021, 09:55 AM	#32
herbc Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New York City Posts: 1,225 hlc1949	Just my 2 cents…. I believe you already settled. Once you accepted, case closed.

08-09-2021, 10:08 AM	#33
SlickRick Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 463	Definitely send this to cardporn on Instagram to get the story out Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

08-09-2021, 10:50 AM	#35
Jom619 Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: California Posts: 132 delmarsportscards jom619	Redbeard should respond to this thread

08-09-2021, 11:05 AM	#38
Orangejello727 Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 19,093	The group submitter has admitted error on his side. He owes you fair market value 17k for the cards he did not deliver back to you. Either the money or the card replacements if he thinks the number is not fair. He is the only person you can go after.

08-09-2021, 11:46 AM	#48
coltsfan23 Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: US Posts: 10,210 coltsfan23	This is almost completely on KK for simply assuming a high value submission belonged to a frequent submitter rather than properly tracking and organizing before releasing the cards. There are people who do enough volume where they don't remember or track everything they sent, especially from July 2020. If KK is telling him that he thinks that submission is his, of course he's going to think KK probably knows better if he did not keep his own records of what he sent a year ago. The true character of a group submitter shows when adversity strikes, not when things go as planned. Be careful who you entrust your cards with.

08-09-2021, 11:51 AM	#50
LTLurker Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 755	100% on KK. Red beard massive scammer as well. Can be both items. To have a business like this and not keep records? That is total and absolute blasphemy. I know Josh & PC are too polite to comment here, but I’d like to hear from a group submitter of that volume to hear how shocked they might be for a fellow submitter to not keep detailed and complete records Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk