Read today that Negro League will be merged with MLB stats….

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by no10pin

No one said that. Your own post showed that the owners took advantage of the situation once the door was open.

There's a major difference between that being the reason they allowed for integration to happen vs. using it as a way to line their own pockets after it started.

TheFrenzy posted, "And your source is discussing the post-integration business wranglings."

The source -- Sabr -- discussed the period after Jackie Robinson signed with Dodgers, but before the league integrated. Just because Jackie broke the color barrier doesn't mean the league integrated.

I'm not going to argue over this -- if you and Frenzy want to pick apart my comments, have at it.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But I see it more as appropriation than recognition. MLB is taking the stats of another league -- one with players it shunned and owners it forced out of business -- for its own record books. That is injustice, in my opinion.

Now you think MLB is doing this to benefit their own record books?



Is this account some kind of reverse Turing Test?

[ThoseBackPages]

.IBL.

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

TheFrenzy posted, "And your source is discussing the post-integration business wranglings."

The source -- Sabr -- discussed the period after Jackie Robinson signed with Dodgers, but before the league integrated. Just because Jackie broke the color barrier doesn't mean the league integrated.

I'm not going to argue over this -- if you and Frenzy want to pick apart my comments, have at it.

There's nothing to pick apart because you still have not provided a single piece of evidence showing that "we must destroy the Negro Leagues, therefore we will sign Black ballplayers" was ever on any owner or league official's agenda.

You've gotten the cause and the effect reverse.

[towerymt]

ScooterMcRibs has been unreachable on mobile. I'm positively unsure what to do with my Tyrus Cobb holdings since this news broke. Concerned.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by towerymt

ScooterMcRibs has been unreachable on mobile. I'm positively unsure what to do with my Tyrus Cobb holdings since this news broke. Concerned.

Man, I've always wanted to meet one of his clients! I think his answer would be - Sell Cobb, Buy Topps Attax

[TheFrenzy]

Originally Posted by towerymt

ScooterMcRibs has been unreachable on mobile. I'm positively unsure what to do with my Tyrus Cobb holdings since this news broke. Concerned.

Originally Posted by no10pin

Man, I've always wanted to meet one of his clients! I think his answer would be - Sell Cobb, Buy Topps Attax

I'll say this, ol' Scoot Scoot has come a long way from 2020 when he had possibly the single worst "call" in the history of Blowout.

[80s Kid]

Originally Posted by Noles939913

This should really drive you up the wall then. The highest percentage of black players for any single season in MLB history was 18.7% in 1981. It shows you the talent pool in the Negro Leagues was pretty darn thin and using these stats as “official” is obviously inflating them. For example lmao at Josh Gibson putting up a near 1.500 OPS anywhere but the Negro Leagues.

At the time the Negro Leagues were big the black population was less than 10% of the total US population. Based on percentages black players actually overrepresented their population from the 1960's until 2002.

There were also quite a few Latino players, which as a group makes up more than a quarter of MLB players today.

[TheFrenzy]

Admittedly, segregating a small portion of the population and creating a nexus of generally weak leagues wherein a few all-time greats could feast and rack up stacks that, when re-integrated into the official record books, place those segregated players the top of major categories is awkward.

It absolutely is.

It's also a 100% self-inflicted wound that could have been easily avoided by not giving in to segregationist thinking. So I don't really have much pity for MLB.

That said, I will also acknowledge that there are plenty of folks who know basically nothing about the game, but have subconsciously bought into the racist notion that certain groups possess a "sports gene" and therefore mistakenly believe that the level of play in the Negro Leagues was higher than in the MLB. Most of these people couldn't tell you the difference between Cap Anson and Moses Fleetwood Walker.

A messy reality which is quite ill-suited for general internet discussion.

[RAV2773]

Saw this one coming from a mile away....should be fun for OP

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Giancarlo27]

The idea of adding these stats when half the time the players played maybe 50 games in a season with shoddy record keeping is dumb. But I support it if it triggers people who suddenly care about a bunch of rate stat records set nearly 100 years ago

[Skipscards]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

But I see it more as appropriation than recognition. MLB is taking the stats of another league -- one with players it shunned and owners it forced out of business -- for its own record books. That is injustice, in my opinion.

It’s not appropriation. Major League Baseball had already concluded the Negro League players were equivalent to their MLB counterparts by inducting them into the Hall of Fame. They were already intertwined and a part of the MLB when they began doing that. It never made any sense to exclude their statistics once there was more data available; particularly when they literally had a commission determine which leagues were considered major in 1969 and excluded them at the time. But their exclusion was primarily due to the incomplete Negro League records. Had they had the amount of data we have today, they likely would have included them then.

The league wasn’t forced out of business by the MLB. Its model simply became obsolete the same way the Players League did and all the other competing leagues did over the years.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by Skipscards

It’s not appropriation. Major League Baseball had already concluded the Negro League players were equivalent to their MLB counterparts by inducting them into the Hall of Fame. They were already intertwined and a part of the MLB when they began doing that. It never made any sense to exclude their statistics once there was more data available; particularly when they literally had a commission determine which leagues were considered major in 1969 and excluded them at the time. But their exclusion was primarily due to the incomplete Negro League records. Had they had the amount of data we have today, they likely would have included them then.

The league wasn’t forced out of business by the MLB. Its model simply became obsolete the same way the Players League did and all the other competing leagues did over the years.

I'm confused -- you're saying the Negro Leagues were included as part of MLB's official record book because they were deemed equivalent? Does that mean any historically equivalent league can qualify for the same recognition? I don't see MLB incorporating stats from the Mexican or Japanese Leagues, for example. I consider this appropriation. The Negro League owners didn't have a choice in the matter -- MLB unilaterally decided to absorb their stats.

The Negro Leagues was forced out of business by the actions of MLB owners. MLB teams took the Negro Leagues' best players, and with it, their fans. It was an intentional strategy. The Negro League owners were at an economic and social disadvantage to MLB owners -- it wasn't fair competition due to segregation and racism.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

There's nothing to pick apart because you still have not provided a single piece of evidence showing that "we must destroy the Negro Leagues, therefore we will sign Black ballplayers" was ever on any owner or league official's agenda.

You've gotten the cause and the effect reverse.

MLB owners wanted the Negro Leagues' paying customers -- stop misrepresenting my words. It was a business decision. It was a strategy to poach the top players from the Negro Leagues and, as a result, their fans.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by TheFrenzy

Now you think MLB is doing this to benefit their own record books?



Is this account some kind of reverse Turing Test?

I'm confused by your apparent confusion. I don't see how appropriation automatically assumes it's to the benefit of the appropriator. I see it as one entity taking from another and claiming the thing they took as their own -- usually there is a power disparity between the appropriator and the appropriated.

And yeah, I think having Josh Gibson's and Satchel Paige's Negro League stats does improve MLB's record book -- and hurts the Negro Leagues as a result. Suddenly, those all-time great players were MLB players all along -- ignoring the fact that they were barred from playing in the league.

[DMCSports]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

If true, what do you think about it? I think it’s a huge, unnecessary, ridiculous nightmare for us as Collectors!
Leave History alone!

Everything about his post is Wrong! Gratz!

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by RAV2773

Saw this one coming from a mile away....

Same, especially after they announced it 4 years ago.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by DMCSports

Everything about his post is Wrong! Gratz!

Benzodiazepines - you should check them out / may help

[Bosoxfan5990]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Benzodiazepines - you should check them out / may help

Nice! Double down!

[theshowandme]

[Handsome Wes]

The great Joe Posnanski once wrote "whenever you hear someone question the extraordinary talent hidden in the Negro Leagues, give them this little timeline. It's useful."

Notable player debuts:

1959 - That was the year the Red Sox became the last team to integrate. Bob Gibson came into the league, as did Willie McCovey and Billy Williams.
1958 - Orlando Cepeda debuted.
1957 - John Roseboro, a 4x AS & multiple GG winning catcher
1956 - Frank Robinson
1955 - Roberto Clemente
1954 - Henry Aaron
1953 - Ernie Banks
1952 - Joe Black (ROY & near MVP)
1951 - Willie Mays
1950 - Sam Jethroe (ROY)
1949 - Minnie Minoso
1948 - Roy Capanella
1947 - Jackie Robinson & Larry Doby

"Look at that list — and remember I’ve only chosen the all-timers — and think that every single one of those players, every last one, would have played in the Negro Leagues had he been born just a few years earlier.

So what happens when you count backwards? It's the same story."

There's absolutely no reason (this is me talking now, not Posnanski) to believe that players such as Satchel Paige, Monte Irvin, Josh Gibson, Hilton Smith, Cool Papa Bell, Buck Leonard, Oscar Charleston, Pop Lloyd, Turkey Stearns, Rube Foster, etc., wouldn't have been among the elites had they been born later in life -- or if baseball's color barrier had come down. That color barrier is a terrible, terrible stain on the game (why the NFL's codified color ban is not treated with the same disdain is a beyond me).

That all being said, I think that it's great that we have stats, I think it's great that we're able to honor the stars of the game. Personally, I wouldn't have incorporated the statlines into MLB for record purposes -- but I also wouldn't count the non-Negro Federal League stats either. And not to be Ford Frick here but I'd say that all pre-1903 and pre-1947 stats should have asterisks on them.

But, that's my opinion. In the meantime, congrats to these Negro League stars for the honor they truly deserve.

[Boredlawyer]

To answer OP's question, no, this will have no bearing on the prices of Bowman Mega boxes.

[Triple B]

Lots of triggered snowflakes in this post. Love it.

This was long overdue. Thank segregation for the need for the Negro Leagues and thank intelligent thinking for incorporating these statistics.

[rms13]

So when do the integrate NPB stats into MLB and players into the HOF? The HOF is the baseball hall of fame not the MLB hall of fame. So it makes sense that negro league guys that never played in MLB are inducted. But Oh who hit .301 with 868 HR is still not in the HOF? Historically the NPB is a much more significant organization than the negro league. Oh should be recognized as the all time HR leader and Ichiro should be recognized as the all time hits leader.

[Noles939913]

Originally Posted by Triple B

Lots of triggered snowflakes in this post. Love it.

This was long overdue. Thank segregation for the need for the Negro Leagues and thank intelligent thinking for incorporating these statistics.

So you think Josh Gibson could’ve put up a nearly 1.500 OPS in MLB? Or had a .372 career average? It’d be similar to Larry Bird averaging 60 PPG playing against only white players.