Your 2025 AL MVP will be....?

[hche]

Originally Posted by GabrielCards

There are a few ways that one could look at these stats. Since the game has changed (better pitching than ever - greater velocity - control and movement + better defensive analytics etc) and batting averages are a good bit lower than they have ever been...doesn't that make Judge's MLB leading batting average (20 pts above second) and 53 HR season COMBO just that much more absolutely incredible?

I believed Judge is the 2nd player ever to have consecutive .320/50HR seasons. The other was Ruth who did it twice. Only 3 players had win the batting title while hitting 50+ HRs (Mantle, Foxx and Judge). So, yes, it is incredible.

[spuds1961]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

All this arguing over stats, and the reality is that the MVP is voted on by sports writers. Writers like stories. They will vote for the best story. Whether that is Judge or Raleigh isn't my point. It's that the whole debate is missing the point. Just look back at all the times the MVP wasn't the best statistical player. It's because stats are only part of the story. A relatively small part to a writer.

You are probably right except for 2017 Judge had 52 home runs to break the rookie record drove in I think 108 runs won rookie of the year and batted .282 I believe Altuve had 26 homers and I think 82 runs batted in but batted .346. Judge was the better story but they didn’t want to give him rookie of the year and mvp.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by spuds1961

You are probably right except for 2017 Judge had 52 home runs to break the rookie record drove in I think 108 runs won rookie of the year and batted .282 I believe Altuve had 26 homers and I think 82 runs batted in but batted .346. Judge was the better story but they didn’t want to give him rookie of the year and mvp.

Altuve was the better story to the writers. They had already given a story to Judge with the ROY. Giving it to Altuve gave them a chance to get two stories. Which writers love. It's always about stories with writers.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by duwal

His low batting average though is just one of several reasons why he should not be picked for MVP. Cal is similar to Schwarber in being mostly a one-trick pony with his power but Judge can match that power while at the same time doing virtually everything else offensively better

I can't try to get with comparing a great defensive catcher with a zero defense (and he's bad wherever you would try to play him on defense) DH. You know it's not apples to apples there.

If Schwarber was an AL player and played even a bad defense at catcher this year with those numbers though? The Yankee brigade would be having an even worse meltdown right now.

Originally Posted by GabrielCards

There are a few ways that one could look at these stats. Since the game has changed (better pitching than ever - greater velocity - control and movement + better defensive analytics etc) and batting averages are a good bit lower than they have ever been...doesn't that make Judge's MLB leading batting average (20 pts above second) and 53 HR season COMBO just that much more absolutely incredible?

That was what I just said if you're really going to try and make a point about batting average, it shouldn't be that you (general, not you specifically) think it's too low to win, it should be 'look how high Judge's is in relationship to the average hitter!'

[JRX]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I can't try to get with comparing a great defensive catcher with a zero defense (and he's bad wherever you would try to play him on defense) DH. You know it's not apples to apples there.

If Schwarber was an AL player and played even a bad defense at catcher this year with those numbers though? The Yankee brigade would be having an even worse meltdown right now.



That was what I just said if you're really going to try and make a point about batting average, it shouldn't be that you (general, not you specifically) think it's too low to win, it should be 'look how high Judge's is in relationship to the average hitter!'

You seem singularly focused on Fielding Run Value and not the other items Savant tracks. As a catcher Cal is good at some things and bad at others. He was 8th among catchers with a lot of his value coming form Framing which is going to lose value next year. He was 37th in blocking, 17th in throwing, 4th in framing, 8th in catching runs. He's not vintage Pudge or Yadier backer there.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by JRX

You seem singularly focused on Fielding Run Value and not the other items Savant tracks. As a catcher Cal is good at some things and bad at others. He was 8th among catchers with a lot of his value coming form Framing which is going to lose value next year. He was 37th in blocking, 17th in throwing, 4th in framing, 8th in catching runs. He's not vintage Pudge or Yadier backer there.

I've said my opinions enough like I said I'm done going back and forth with some of you. Both are deserving winners and at the end of the day the outcome has zero consequences on my life.

[cnewby]

3 pity votes for mid dumper. Judge in a landslide.

[REGGIE206]

138 vs 93 votes? That is a lot closer than I thought it would be here when you think about how Judge is on one of the most popular teams in the world and Cal is on a team that has never been to the World Series. I have a feeling the actual MVP votes will be a lot closer than people think.

I agree that Judge’s offensive numbers blows out Cal’s offensive numbers (except for HR’s, RBI’s, and steals).. but how Cal managed their pitching staff and how Cal was a big factor to the Mariners winning the AL West for the first time in over 20 years might have voters lean his way.

Regardless, it’s still awesome to have witnessed Cal do what he did as the Mariners starting catcher. I’m just enjoying watching this historic AL MVP race.

[dodgerfanjohn]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I've said my opinions enough like I said I'm done going back and forth with some of you. Both are deserving winners and at the end of the day the outcome has zero consequences on my life.

Your trollish ness is quite epic, although I’m not convinced you actually are aware of it.

47 posts on 23 pages says at least some part of you believes this will in fact have some consequences on your life.

[PuddleMonkey]

Originally Posted by BostonNut

I’m Bnut! Pleasure to meet you!

Keep up the good work!

[fulltritty]

Originally Posted by REGGIE206

138 vs 93 votes? That is a lot closer than I thought it would be here when you think about how Judge is on one of the most popular teams in the world and Cal is on a team that has never been to the World Series. I have a feeling the actual MVP votes will be a lot closer than people think.

I agree that Judge’s offensive numbers blows out Cal’s offensive numbers (except for HR’s, RBI’s, and steals).. but how Cal managed their pitching staff and how Cal was a big factor to the Mariners winning the AL West for the first time in over 20 years might have voters lean his way.

Regardless, it’s still awesome to have witnessed Cal do what he did as the Mariners starting catcher. I’m just enjoying watching this historic AL MVP race.

Playing in a much easier division than the Yankees, the Mariners pitching staff ranked only 1 spot better (13th to 14th) in ERA than the Yankees pitchers and were 12th compared to the Yankees staff 2nd in batting average against. Does this mean the Yankees catchers were much better than Cal? 3rd best record in the AL and a losing record away from home all in a worse division.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by JustinVerlander07

I'd rather Judge because he gets on base more, it has nothing to do with his batting average though. He gets on base more.

Cal had a great OBP himself though of .359. And for the last and millionth time, there is zero debate of Judge being the Hank Aaron award winner.

Now answer my question.

A .359 OBP actually isn't great -- it's merely good. He ranked 20th out of 145 qualified hitters. Great would probably be .380 or higher -- only 6 hitters were at that level this season, including Judge and Ohtani. Very good would probably be .370 to .379 -- 3 hitters were at that level, including Kyle Tucker and Rafael Devers.

Edit -- these would be my tiers for OBP performance:

Average: .310-.319
Above average: .320-.344
Good: .345-.364
Very good: .365-.379
Great: .380 or above

[fabiani12333]

My guess is Judge wins the MVP.

The way I see it, Raleigh's floor for the share of 1st place votes will be 1/3rd -- this means 10 out of 30 votes. But I think his ceiling is a few more votes than Judge. It all depends on how many voters are swayed by his superior narrative and how many are convinced that his defensive value to his team is underappreciated by the statistics.

[Nostalgia]

60 homeruns with 97 walks and ONLY a .359 OBP tells you a lot about Cal Raleigh. He hit 7 more homeruns and walked 25 more times than Chris Davis did the year Davis hit 53 homeruns, yet Raleigh still had a lower OBP than him.

Davis hit 53 homeruns, 132 RBI, 42 doubles, batted .286 and finished 3rd in the voting to Miggy's triple crown...Judge had a better year than Miggy had in his triple crown year.

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

All this arguing over stats, and the reality is that the MVP is voted on by sports writers. Writers like stories. They will vote for the best story. Whether that is Judge or Raleigh isn't my point. It's that the whole debate is missing the point. Just look back at all the times the MVP wasn't the best statistical player. It's because stats are only part of the story. A relatively small part to a writer.

It's not really about the "story" as much as it's about the context. For example, whether or not a candidate is on a winning team has historically been a big factor in the vote. Even today, writers mention team record as a significant factor in the voting, as they think a player who puts up numbers in a playoff race matters more than a player who puts up numbers with a non-contender.

Luckily for both Judge and Raleigh, their respective team played meaningful games all season long and ended up in the playoffs.

[fabiani12333]

If you want proof that BBWAA writers vote based on context, look no further than the 2000 NL MVP vote. Jeff Kent got 22 first-place votes and the MVP Award entirely because of context. Even though he had great numbers, he didn't lead the league in any notable category. The Giants had the most wins in the NL during their first season in their new ball park. The voters also despised his teammate Barry Bonds and wanted to give the award to Kent out of spite.

[JRX]

Originally Posted by fabiani12333

If you want proof that BBWAA writers vote based on context, look no further than the 2000 NL MVP vote. Jeff Kent got 22 first-place votes and the MVP Award entirely because of context. Even though he had great numbers, he didn't lead the league in any notable category. The Giants had the most wins in the NL during their first season in their new ball park. The voters also despised his teammate Barry Bonds and wanted to give the award to Kent out of spite.

Voting has changed a lot over 20+ years. They focus a lot more on stats and advanced stats.

[JustinVerlander07]

Originally Posted by dodgerfanjohn

Your trollish ness is quite epic, although I’m not convinced you actually are aware of it.

47 posts on 23 pages says at least some part of you believes this will in fact have some consequences on your life.

There is zero trolling from me. I assure you, zero consequence to my life. I like debating (I mentioned that earlier in this thread), but I also am not going to rehash the same points with the same people over and over again.

I have no money on either of them, neither one of them is on my team or against my team. No agenda. (Heck, if Skubal doesn't win the Cy Young I don't care, so why would I care about AL MVP?)

[theshowandme]

If you think Cal Raleigh is more deserving than Aaron Judge to receive the Most Valuable Player award, I am just going to assume you are smoking crack.

It doesn’t matter what the award is called:

Most Valuable
Most Outstanding
Most Impactful
Most Impressive

Judge in a landslide every time

[SaveMeTheGum]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

If you think Cal Raleigh is more deserving than Aaron Judge to receive the Most Valuable Player award, I am just going to assume you are smoking crack.

It doesn’t matter what the award is called:

Most Valuable
Most Outstanding
Most Impactful
Most Impressive

Judge in a landslide every time

Inability to see other points of view is why we can't find any middle ground in this country...

[cnewby]

Originally Posted by SaveMeTheGum

Inability to see other points of view is why we can't find any middle ground in this country...

yeah, something like that...

[fabiani12333]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

If you think Cal Raleigh is more deserving than Aaron Judge to receive the Most Valuable Player award, I am just going to assume you are smoking crack.

It doesn’t matter what the award is called:

Most Valuable
Most Outstanding
Most Impactful
Most Impressive

Judge in a landslide every time

If the award was indeed intended for the most valuable player in a given season, you would need to factor in things like salary and marketing value.

Raleigh is getting paid only fraction of what Judge is getting paid this season -- $2,666,667 vs $40,000,000. Raleigh has provided so much surplus value to his team this season -- it's crazy.

On the other hand, Judge is obviously a bigger star and draw than the "Big Dumper", so he'd be more valuable from a marketing and sales perspective.

[Chris Lyle]

If we are going to go with the true meaning of MVP for impact, valuable, impactful, impressive then JRam would have a better chance of winning and he doesn't have any chance at all.

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by Chris Lyle

If we are going to go with the true meaning of MVP for impact, valuable, impactful, impressive then JRam would have a better chance of winning and he doesn't have any chance at all.

With NO protection. Like ever. Idk how he doesnt lead the league in IBB

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

[Chris Lyle]

Originally Posted by hxcmilkshake

With NO protection. Like ever. Idk how he doesnt lead the league in IBB

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

honestly even as a unapologetic fan I have no idea why he doesn't either.