Former Mizzou Michael Sam comes out of the closet

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

So would you like to argue that being gay is now a religion-like way of life? I have a feeling even if you wrote up a doctrine for being gay and the beliefs that go with it that it would not end up passing a recognized belief system acknowledged by our government.

No, you are claiming, or claimed, that belief system somehow defines rights. The Supreme Court says the government does not and it can't measure or define such, which again you are claiming here. Recognized belief system is not part of law.

[royprice31]

Originally Posted by trixstar

Oh you're a creationalist? So you also think the earth is 6000 years old and that Satan put the dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith.

Yes on part of that, but I haven't heard the part about satan and dinosaur bones.

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by WilsonValdez

Echemmmmmm..

House to Vote Next Week on Abortion Ban Bill

Just like gay rights, there is a practical argument. You can argue that life begins at conception and that unborn children have human rights to not be killed.

Just because these issues have a lot of faith-based backing behind them doesn't mean there aren't logical and legal arguments to support them.

Does everyone really believe that 100% of the people running around fighting these battles are doing it solely based off their personal beliefs and couple lines in the bible? If that's the case then this is way too much ignorance for me to ever be able to debate.

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

No, you are claiming, or claimed, that belief system somehow defines rights. The Supreme Court says the government does not and it can't measure or define such, which again you are claiming here. Recognized belief system is not part of law.

I was simply responding to the other guys argument that gay people can discriminate against Christians based on their beliefs. The only way they can do that is if they have legal grounds that it violates their own beliefs. I don't believe someone can outwardly discriminate right now and then argue I'm gay that's why I did it and expect that to stand in court.

[Chaddie84]

Originally Posted by royprice31

Yes on part of that, but I haven't heard the part about satan and dinosaur bones.

1. God creates Dinosaurs
2. God kills Dinosaurs
3. God creates Man
4. Man kills God
5. Man creates Dinosaurs
6. Dinosaurs eat Man
7. Woman inherits the Earth

[royprice31]

Originally Posted by Davesportscards

When did I say that?

You believe in evolution, correct? What did you evolve from? You said you don't think we came from apes but share a common ancestry, correct? But you won't explain that so that's where I get my assumption.

[Davesportscards]

Originally Posted by royprice31

You believe in evolution, correct? What did you evolve from? You said you don't think we came from apes but share a common ancestry, correct? But you won't explain that so that's where I get my assumption.

You should look up adaptation and how it relates to evolution.

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

I was simply responding to the other guys argument that gay people can discriminate against Christians based on their beliefs. The only way they can do that is if they have legal grounds that it violates their own beliefs. I don't believe someone can outwardly discriminate right now and then argue I'm gay that's why I did it and expect that to stand in court.

No one said that. They were asking you if you thought it was fair the other way around.

You keep suggesting faith system and rights go hand in hand, again, the court says they do not. Not sure how much more clear that can be.

[WCTYSON]

American Fascists - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by MeteoriteGuy

No one said that. They were asking you if you thought it was fair the other way around.

You keep suggesting faith system and rights go hand in hand, again, the court says they do not. Not sure how much more clear that can be.

And you're more than free to argue that forcing Christians to support newly adopted gay rights legislation is NOT a violation of freedom of religion. And you would have a case. But so does the other side. And eventually this will be decided by the Supreme Court and it will be settled.

[WCTYSON]

Christofascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by WCTYSON

Christofascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some Christians are insane, have insane beliefs, and want to force them down everyone's throat. What's your point? There's people like that in every group.

[WCTYSON]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

And you're more than free to argue that forcing Christians to support newly adopted gay rights legislation is NOT a violation of freedom of religion. And you would have a case. But so does the other side. And eventually this will be decided by the Supreme Court and it will be settled.

It is not forcing Christian businesses to support gay rights, it is about protecting the rights of all workers. Actually, what you are speaking on is bigotry that you want protected by the US government. We as citizens of the USA all need to fully understand the importance of the separation of church and state.

[Davesportscards]

Originally Posted by WCTYSON

It is not forcing Christian businesses to support gay rights, it is about protecting the rights of all workers. Actually, what you are speaking on is bigotry that you want protected by the US government. We as citizens of the USA all need to fully understand the importance of the separation of church and state.

This is what it seems like.

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

And you're more than free to argue that forcing Christians to support newly adopted gay rights legislation is NOT a violation of freedom of religion. And you would have a case. But so does the other side. And eventually this will be decided by the Supreme Court and it will be settled.

I don't have to make that argument, nor could I. I have not passed any Bar.

When it comes to court it won't be if the christians are forced, it will be if christian backed and funded laws are constitutional.

If it was anti-christan laws being passed, then it might come to the court in that manner, but it isn't. It is anti-gay laws being passed.

Regardless, you can't claim a court given right is faith system based as you have several times, the court has ruled otherwise. Your opinion on law, does not trump the court rulings.

[NJNets24]

Originally Posted by royprice31

You believe in evolution, correct? What did you evolve from? You said you don't think we came from apes but share a common ancestry, correct? But you won't explain that so that's where I get my assumption.

Introduction to Human Evolution | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

Human Evolution: The fossil evidence in 3D

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by WCTYSON

It is not forcing Christian businesses to support gay rights, it is about protecting the rights of all workers. Actually, what you are speaking on is bigotry that you want protected by the US government. We as citizens of the USA all need to fully understand the importance of the separation of church and state.

For the millionth time, please stop basing your judgements on being gay being natural and a human right on the same level as race, sex, etc. Having that be true is the only way you can argue I'm bigoted.

But if you consider the Christian viewpoint that it's a choice, it's no different than being against smoking in public places for example. It's a choice that should not be freely allowed because it infringes on the rights of others. Are you a bigot if you don't want people blowing smoke in your face? No, you're defending your right to not have to be subjected to smoke fumes. This is the same, it's not about hate it's about defending the right to practice one's religion and not be forced to compromise it for what is viewed as a personal choice not a genetic right.

So many people in this thread just want to assume that Christians agree it's natural and still for no reason want to discriminate.

[NJNets24]

"You guys need to stop shoving this homosexual lifestyle down out throats! Please, let us ban gay marriage and control women's rights in peace, it is our god given right."

[IronMonkey415]

[WilsonValdez]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

Just like gay rights, there is a practical argument. You can argue that life begins at conception and that unborn children have human rights to not be killed.

Just because these issues have a lot of faith-based backing behind them doesn't mean there aren't logical and legal arguments to support them.

Does everyone really believe that 100% of the people running around fighting these battles are doing it solely based off their personal beliefs and couple lines in the bible? If that's the case then this is way too much ignorance for me to ever be able to debate.

The push behind it is pretty much exclusively faith-based (I won't say 100% but pretty damn close). The practical argument come about as a justification for the faith-based starting point.

Passing these legislations, in a supposedly secular government, most certainly forces their beliefs on people (women) who do not share those beliefs.

[SpaSpo]

Originally Posted by WCTYSON

It is not forcing Christian businesses to support gay rights, it is about protecting the rights of all workers. Actually, what you are speaking on is bigotry that you want protected by the US government. We as citizens of the USA all need to fully understand the importance of the separation of church and state.

This is very important because it is so misunderstood, and it actually can mean the opposite of what some people think that it does.

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by WilsonValdez

The push behind it is pretty much exclusively faith-based (I won't say 100% but pretty damn close). The practical argument come about as a justification for the faith-based starting point.

Passing these legislations, in a supposedly secular government, most certainly forces their beliefs on people (women) who do not share those beliefs.

I don't deny the faith-based pushing behind it at all. I will not argue for something to go into legal law if it's purely faith-based.

But regardless of when they formed, there are practical arguments for why things like abortion, gay rights, etc are wrong. My whole issue with this thread in the first place was people treating the issue like it's this cut and dry thing when it's not.

[MeteoriteGuy]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

For the millionth time, please stop basing your judgements on being gay being natural and a human right on the same level as race, sex, etc. Having that be true is the only way you can argue I'm bigoted.

But if you consider the Christian viewpoint that it's a choice, it's no different than being against smoking in public places for example. It's a choice that should not be freely allowed because it infringes on the rights of others. Are you a bigot if you don't want people blowing smoke in your face? No, you're defending your right to not have to be subjected to smoke fumes. This is the same, it's not about hate it's about defending the right to practice one's religion and not be forced to compromise it for what is viewed as a personal choice not a genetic right.

So many people in this thread just want to assume that Christians agree it's natural and still for no reason want to discriminate.

I don't see anyone assuming Christians think it is natural. In fact there was two pages of debate on that. No one made any like comment. We completely understand that the definition of natural, and science that shows it is natural, means nothing to you.

And while we are on definitions, don't look up the meaning of bigotry, sexual preference is included within it, as it should be. A personal or faith reason for bigotry, does not make it not so.

[NJNets24]

Originally Posted by friarbolt

I don't deny the faith-based pushing behind it at all. I will not argue for something to go into legal law if it's purely faith-based.

But regardless of when they formed, there are practical arguments for why things like abortion, gay rights, etc are wrong. My whole issue with this thread in the first place was people treating the issue like it's this cut and dry thing when it's not.

It is a cut and dry thing. You have religious beliefs you hold dear. You want to violate other peoples rights, because your beliefs don't agree with that. Would you be ok with another religion not allowing you to marry?

[friarbolt]

Originally Posted by NJNets24

It is a cut and dry thing. You have religious beliefs you hold dear. You want to violate other peoples rights, because your beliefs don't agree with that. Would you be ok with another religion not allowing you to marry?

I don't believe they are human rights like race, sex, etc. If that's the case it completely changes being against gay marriage. If I agreed it was natural and still wanted to judge gays I'd agree with you.