PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Bassplayah101

Doesnt make it any less a crime.

Yes, but law enforcement isn’t going to bend over backwards to prosecute anyone where the participants should know they’re in a place rife with corruption, or has great potential to be corrupt. It’s kind of like a “they should’ve known better” kind of stance.

Not that I condone corrupt behavior, but our hobby operates largely on “the honor system”. People who foolishly rely on grading companies for protection are going to be disappointed. Law enforcement’s solution is, perhaps, to stop paying stupid money for cards.

[signed79]

Originally Posted by sugarbabies

PSA and SGC's incompetence has made it more difficult to prosecute Moser and PWCC.

If anything, their incompetence should actually help law enforcement since the cards are preserved in holders and there is a digital library showing the work that was done while the cards were in their custody.

I'm assuming you're thinking that Brent, Moser, et al, can just simply claim that since PSA, SGC, and BGS certified and graded the cards it was OK.

Imagine someone counterfeiting a hundred dollar bill and using it at the grocery store. When the bill was checked at the counter with detection pens and uv lights, and passed, the counterfeiter realized that they can fool the store again. They try, and it works. This goes on for years until someone outs the counterfeiter publicly and shows strong evidence of what they did.

The counterfeiter (card doctors) cannot use the grocery store (PWCC) accepting the bills as a defense for their fraud. The counterfeiter and grocery store cannot blame the pen and uv detection companies. Law enforcement will only care about the guy making the bills, committing fraud.

But what if the grocery store knew the bills were fake and that their detecting pens/lights were not working? That's where we are.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by signed79

If anything, their incompetence should actually help law enforcement since the cards are preserved in holders and there is a digital library showing the work that was done while the cards were in their custody.

I'm assuming you're thinking that Brent, Moser, et al, can just simply claim that since PSA, SGC, and BGS certified and graded the cards it was OK.

Imagine someone counterfeiting a hundred dollar bill and using it at the grocery store. When the bill was checked at the counter with detection pens and uv lights, and passed, the counterfeiter realized that they can fool the store again. They try, and it works. This goes on for years until someone outs the counterfeiter publicly and shows strong evidence of what they did.

The counterfeiter (card doctors) cannot use the grocery store (PWCC) accepting the bills as a defense for their fraud. The counterfeiter and grocery store cannot blame the pen and uv detection companies. Law enforcement will only care about the guy making the bills, committing fraud.

But what if the grocery store knew the bills were fake and that their detecting pens/lights were not working? That's where we are.

Counterfeiting and alterations are two different things.

[festus]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Counterfeiting and alterations are two different things.

FRAUD IS FRAUD

[Vladdy Jr]

Originally Posted by festus

FRAUD IS FRAUD

100%

The term alterations in our hobby are for those in denial, those heavily invested in fraudulent cards, and the perpetrators behind these robberies and scams.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by festus

FRAUD IS FRAUD

Please go back and read the post I responded to.


I'm not advocating or justifying any wrong doing. but people are all worked up and realty not thinking logically these days.

[festus]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Please go back and read the post I responded to.


I'm not advocating or justifying any wrong doing. but people are all worked up and realty not thinking logically these days.

I don't have to go back to read it; I know what he said. He was using an analogy..

[signed79]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Counterfeiting and alterations are two different things.

So are peanut butter and jelly.

[Bruins1993]

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle image resolution quality samples from various sellers:

1785 x 3000 pixels - Heritage Auctions (example #1 presently up for auction)
1782 x 3000 pixels - Heritage Auctions (example #2 sold in last 3 months)
1056 x 1800 pixels - Huggins & Scott Auctions (example presently up for auction)
951 x 1600 pixels - probstein123 (example #1 sold in last 3 months on eBay)
947 x 1591 pixels - stevezeller (example sold in last 3 months on eBay)
945 x 1600 pixels - sportsinvestments (example sold in last 3 months on eBay)
943 x 1600 pixels - probstein123 (example #2 sold in last 3 months on eBay)
900 x 1505 pixels - just_collect (example sold in last 3 months on eBay)
701 x 1299 pixels - pwcc_marketplace (example #1 sold in last 3 months on eBay)*
697 x 1287 pixels - ppcc_marketplace (example #2 sold in last 3 months on eBay)
600 x 1032 pixels - milehighcardco (example presently up for auction)
600 x 1023 pixels - mintstateinc (example sold in last 3 months on eBay)
600 x 1000 pixels - steelcitycollectibles (example presently for sale on eBay)

*PSA Cert 42775201

[signed79]

Aren't eBay images restricted to smaller sizes?

[Bruins1993]

Yes, eBay size is restricted to a maximum.

Take a look at the differences in quality of images elected to be used by eBay sellers sampled (roughly just the slab itself). For example:

951x1600 = 1,521,600 pixels total
vs.
701 x 1299 = 910,599 pixels total
vs.
600 x 1000 = 600,000 pixels total

You would think a seller would want to use the highest quality picture available while restricted in size... right? Why wouldn't they?

[mattglet]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

The size is restricted to a maximum. Take a look at the differences in quality of images elected to be used by eBay sellers sampled (roughly just the slab itself):

Fox example:
951x1600 = 1,521,600 pixels total
vs.
701 x 1299 = 910,599 pixels total
vs.
600 x 1000 = 600,000 pixels total

You would think a seller would want to use the highest quality picture available when restricted in size... right? Why wouldn't they?

The majority of the time they are limited by technology. There are still major sellers that use old phones (with garbage cameras) or old digital cameras (remember those things). Ebay allows up to 1600x1600 - if they are less than that, I'm guessing the device used to take the picture can't go that high.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25578126

1953 Parkhurst Boom Boom Geoffrion #29

Value gain of $91.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller www.stevenovella.com as a PSA-7 on January 12, 2016 for $222.50. VCP link: http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...grd=7&grdr=PSA
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $314.00 on September 26, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1552270

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of both the left and right edges.

[mjohnatgt]

Do the subtraction again.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Do the subtraction again.

I didn't change the purchase price from what I copied and pasted it from.
It's fixed now.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25578124

1953 Parkhurst Doug Harvey #26

Value gain of $184.95

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller www.stevenovella.com as a PSA-6 on January 12, 2016 for $108.05. VCP link: http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...grd=6&grdr=PSA
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-8 for $293.00 on June 20, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1506274

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of both the left and right edges.

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:28843591

1919 T213-3 Coupon Christy Mathewson PSA 3 to PSA 4
Alteration types: Creases pressed, corner repaired

Sold on 11/12/2017 as a PSA 3 by PWCC to eBay user u***t (masked ID) for $1,913.88
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 5/9/2018 as a PSA 4 for $1,624.00
Final price: $1,624.00
Value loss: $289.88


This card was in the same PSA order as the E93 Wagner (Post #3488) and the D304 Cobb (Post #3511) that were previously outed as altered. Although the doctor gained a full grade from PSA, he or she lost almost $300. Why? I believe that because this card is so rare and its collector base is both small and educated, that they knew something wasn't right here.

In the red box on the card front the creasing has been noticeably minimized, which can be seen in the third enlarged image. The bottom left corner has also been made sharper, which is evident in the photos.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the buyer of the PSA 3 is an unknown eBay user, with the masked ID u***t. I would ask those reading the Blowout boards from PSA to make it a priority to see who submitted this order for grading, as that will be the clue as to who u***t is. This card is not the work of Gary Moser; it is another card doctor using PWCC to sell altered cards.


PSA 3: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1572275
PSA 4: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1652859

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25790664

1952 Berk Ross Mickey Mantle

Value gain of $4,889.12

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-7 on March 07, 2016 for $3,161.88. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1242492
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $8,051.00 on September 08, 2016. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1341533

From the PSA-8 listing description: "A fresh and beautifully preserved '8' with four sharp corners, beautiful centering and undeniable NM-MT card stock."

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify blatantly obvious trimming.

[4mightyQuinn]

SO WE GOOD?

[corndog]

PSA Cert #41697386

1952 Bowman Large Art Donovan SP RC #46

Value gain of $785.50

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from Ebay seller cardsandcoins as a PSA-5.5 on June 17, 2015 for $157.50. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...van-1732604088
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $943.00 on November 18, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1857595

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify trimming of the top and bottom edges.

[cking]

Holy crowI guess that throws that whole 1/64 inch theory out the window.....PSA has no shame at all

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #25790664

1952 Berk Ross Mickey Mantle

Value gain of $4,889.12

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-7 on March 07, 2016 for $3,161.88. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1242492
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $8,051.00 on September 08, 2016. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1341533

From the PSA-8 listing description: "A fresh and beautifully preserved '8' with four sharp corners, beautiful centering and undeniable NM-MT card stock."

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify blatantly obvious trimming.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #27581075

1952 Bowman Large Frank Gifford RC #16

Value gain of $65.07 - card received a sticker in an attempt to push the sale

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-5.5 on May 17, 2017 for $290.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1492036
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent Huigens) as a PSA-6 for $355.07 on September 24, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1549598

Yellow circles are print and fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify blatantly obvious trimming.

[KhalDrogo]

52 Bowman's seem ripe for Moser.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA Cert #:28843591

1919 T213-3 Coupon Christy Mathewson PSA 3 to PSA 4
Alteration types: Creases pressed, corner repaired

Sold on 11/12/2017 as a PSA 3 by PWCC to eBay user u***t (masked ID) for $1,913.88
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 5/9/2018 as a PSA 4 for $1,624.00
Final price: $1,624.00
Value loss: $289.88


This card was in the same PSA order as the E93 Wagner (Post #3488) and the D304 Cobb (Post #3511) that were previously outed as altered. Although the doctor gained a full grade from PSA, he or she lost almost $300. Why? I believe that because this card is so rare and its collector base is both small and educated, that they knew something wasn't right here.

In the red box on the card front the creasing has been noticeably minimized, which can be seen in the third enlarged image. The bottom left corner has also been made sharper, which is evident in the photos.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the buyer of the PSA 3 is an unknown eBay user, with the masked ID u***t. I would ask those reading the Blowout boards from PSA to make it a priority to see who submitted this order for grading, as that will be the clue as to who u***t is. This card is not the work of Gary Moser; it is another card doctor using PWCC to sell altered cards.


PSA 3: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1572275
PSA 4: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1652859

This just breaks my heart. I love the Coupon cards and the Type 3s from 1919 are so, so hard to find. A PSA 3 is practically high-grade for the issue and it was a beautiful PSA 3. Just a treasure of a Matty that they had to go and f*(k with. Why? WHY!?!? I don't know if I want to cry or tear a phone book in half.

These people don't care about the hobby AT ALL. Remember that the next time Brent tries to sell his "conservation" BS. God I wish I was going to the Natty this year. I would definitely be getting banned from all future Nattys, that's for sure.

Arthur

[signed79]

@superdan49 I sent you a PM but your box is full