PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by bensie

Sorry, Arthur is right. I was posing a thought experiment to try to get you guys to think about why the alteration really bothers you. I felt (and still feel) that several people are having a very emotional reaction to this. The original impetus to my posing the thought experiment was my seeing a couple of people selling all their cards and getting out of the hobby entirely. If you would step back and look at my posts objectively, you'd see them for what they are...questions posed to invoke thought and to get you guys to apply more critical thinking skills here.

I'm one of the people selling off 90% of my graded cards, and my response isn't emotional at all.

What drives the price of graded cards? Why are vintage 9s and modern 10s worth so much more than raw cards with no visible flaws? Because a few TPGs have acquired a reputation for being strong graders and their opinion carries a lot more weight than all of the random pop-up grading companies or a random eBay seller.

The absolute vast majority of what has been posted in this thread has been with no emotion. Simple facts. Here's who owned the card, here's what happened to it, here's what it sold for before, here's how much more it sold for now.

So, how many more of those need to make the light of day before the confidence in the TPGs, which again is the sole reason for massive price multipliers, is shaken enough where people stop paying premiums for them? There are over 1000 on this site now across all the threads. The rumors of trimming have always been out there, but it is WAY bigger than what anyone assumed even 5 years ago. How many more 1000s need to come out (and probably could come out if someone had the time) before a PSA grade carries the same weight as a PRO or GMA grade? If they can't catch some of the obvious cards in this thread, then they are not any better than those companies.

I still like to collect cards, but the notion of sitting on 10s of thousands of dollars in graded cards, of which at least 75% of the value was in the grade alone, scared the crap out of me. I don't need a $70 PSA 9 Gwynn RC when a well-centered NM-MT copy runs about 10 bucks. That's why almost all of my graded stuff is going. I no longer buy into the myth that I bought into for 15 years, and I'm perfectly content with imperfect cards.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by no10pin

I'm one of the people selling off 90% of my graded cards, and my response isn't emotional at all.

You're definitely not alone, and there are lots of people -- like myself -- who are taking a "hold" position on graded cards I do have without purchasing any more for the foreseeable future.

It's not good for PSA's business, and it certainly opens the doors to someone with enough capital and a good idea to step in and restore confidence.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by Vintagecollect

The rumors of trimming have always been out there, but it is WAY bigger than what anyone assumed even 5 years ago.

For last 10 years I've had no doubt (in my opinion) the whole #### house would go up in flames if people truly knew how many doctored cards were in slabs.

How many pre 1970 PSA 9 and 10's were around 10-15 years ago?

How many PSA submissions have been made by card doctors? I doubt PSA would ever want you to see the numbers!

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

How many PSA submissions have been made by card doctors? I doubt PSA would ever want you to see the numbers!

Of course not, because "If a card has been 'altered', but nobody can tell, then is doesn't matter."

#nevergetcheated

[corndog]

PSA Cert #24507598

1952 Topps Look 'N See Amelia Earhart #45

Value gain of $392.00

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from cookiemonster501 as a PSA-5 on May 19, 2015 for $40.00. VCP info shown below at top:



Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $432.00 on October 21, 2015. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1179092

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or edge trim pattern identifiers.
Red squares identify trimmed left and right edges.
No back scan was provided for the PSA 5.

[KhalDrogo]

Here are my thoughts going forward.

While I realize modern has been affected also, and is probably a more popular target because of the ease of acquiring and the sheer volume, I think the vintage market takes a bigger hit. Not today, next month, or even next year. But if the TPGs don't clean up this mess, you will see the effects in the coming years.

I'll give you my personal example. Right before this thread was created, I was looking at beginning the Sandy Koufax Topps playing years run. Nothing crazy, but starting with a PSA 7-8 and seeing where that took me. I will graduate fellowship in summer 2020, and expect to have a substantial amount of extra discretionary income to play with. Seemed like a good time to dive into vintage.

Flash forward to today, and I've abandoned that project before I even started. How can you trust any high-grade example or unusually clean example for the issue where the provenance is unknown? Is it worth spending tens of thousands of dollars a year only to find out later that your cards are altered, and the road to recourse may be impossible?

Growing markets need more new money entering than old money exiting. How will the vintage market attract new big spenders with this cloud hanging over it?

[corndog]

PSA Cert #23018032

1952 Topps Look 'N See Amelia Earhart #45

Value gain of $184.44

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from boilerjake as a PSA-6 on June 01, 2014 for $51.06. VCP info shown below at top of slab:



Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $235.50 on May 23, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1494869

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or edge trim pattern identifiers.
Red squares identify trimmed left edge.
No back scan was provided for the PSA 6.

[SetBuilder]

Look at this insanity: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PSA-10-BABE...p2047675.l2557

A hand cut strip card of Babe Ruth graded Gem Mint 10.

How does this happen?

[hxcmilkshake]

Originally Posted by bensie

Thank you, Arthur. You hit the nail on the head.







Sorry, Arthur is right. I was posing a thought experiment to try to get you guys to think about why the alteration really bothers you. I felt (and still feel) that several people are having a very emotional reaction to this. The original impetus to my posing the thought experiment was my seeing a couple of people selling all their cards and getting out of the hobby entirely. If you would step back and look at my posts objectively, you'd see them for what they are...questions posed to invoke thought and to get you guys to apply more critical thinking skills here.

Thank you dearly for this service. Its free?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Look at this insanity: https://www.ebay.com/itm/PSA-10-BABE...p2047675.l2557

A hand cut strip card of Babe Ruth graded Gem Mint 10.

How does this happen?

I think you're confusing "hand cut" with "sheet cut?"

Arthur

[bensie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Here are my thoughts going forward.

While I realize modern has been affected also, and is probably a more popular target because of the ease of acquiring and the sheer volume, I think the vintage market takes a bigger hit. Not today, next month, or even next year. But if the TPGs don't clean up this mess, you will see the effects in the coming years.

I'll give you my personal example. Right before this thread was created, I was looking at beginning the Sandy Koufax Topps playing years run. Nothing crazy, but starting with a PSA 7-8 and seeing where that took me. I will graduate fellowship in summer 2020, and expect to have a substantial amount of extra discretionary income to play with. Seemed like a good time to dive into vintage.

Flash forward to today, and I've abandoned that project before I even started. How can you trust any high-grade example or unusually clean example for the issue where the provenance is unknown? Is it worth spending tens of thousands of dollars a year only to find out later that your cards are altered, and the road to recourse may be impossible?

Growing markets need more new money entering than old money exiting. How will the vintage market attract new big spenders with this cloud hanging over it?

Serious question, but did the market for autographed cards collapse with the recent revelations of vast pre-war forgeries? I had a good number of autographed cards I acquired in the 90s and have been selling off over the last couple of years. They're mainly junk wax, but I have seen zero slowdown and zero price depreciation.

I still think you guys are overestimating your reach/influence here. Like I mentioned in other threads, there have been numerous large auctions close since 'slabgate' hit the presses, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there has been no slowdown to speak of yet. Prices are still crazy. When do you anticipate this market correction, and why is it so slow to come given the scope of these revelations? Some have mentioned shill bidding and hope, but I don't buy it.

[SetBuilder]

I don't think bensie understands that there are two groups of collectors: one group believes that TPG's penalize alterations (per their grading standards) and therefore don't alter their cards; and another group of people who wipe their a$* with PSA's standards, and cheat by clandestinely altering cards.

Two groups of people operating by two completely different playbooks. It's not an even playing field. One group is cheating.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Here are my thoughts going forward.

While I realize modern has been affected also, and is probably a more popular target because of the ease of acquiring and the sheer volume, I think the vintage market takes a bigger hit. Not today, next month, or even next year. But if the TPGs don't clean up this mess, you will see the effects in the coming years.

I'll give you my personal example. Right before this thread was created, I was looking at beginning the Sandy Koufax Topps playing years run. Nothing crazy, but starting with a PSA 7-8 and seeing where that took me. I will graduate fellowship in summer 2020, and expect to have a substantial amount of extra discretionary income to play with. Seemed like a good time to dive into vintage.

Flash forward to today, and I've abandoned that project before I even started. How can you trust any high-grade example or unusually clean example for the issue where the provenance is unknown? Is it worth spending tens of thousands of dollars a year only to find out later that your cards are altered, and the road to recourse may be impossible?

Growing markets need more new money entering than old money exiting. How will the vintage market attract new big spenders with this cloud hanging over it?

or you know, dont worry about the assigned grade, and buy nice looking slabs

[corndog]

Pretty good recent article here regarding card doctoring and the law: https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...icult-process/

We are very close to documented 1 million dollars in profit gained.

[Astros19]

I've stated before that I have a lot of vintage that belonged to my father inlaw. My mother inlaw has wanted me to try and sell them but I've convinced her to sit on things for a while. I want to see where all of this new info leads to. My thoughts are that someone will come up with a computer program that can detect alterations, and if and when that happens we will see a drastic change in how previously human graded cards are valued opposed to anything graded with the newer method of graded cards.
I would think I'm not the only one who sees this as a very realistic possibility. I'm guessing if something like this were to happen a lot of people with collections filled with human graded cards would be pretty nervous knowing that their collection is in danger of losing value because of the newest technology of grading cards.
I could see a time where a card graded by company XYZ who uses computer technology grades a card XYZ 7 outsells the old human graded PSA 9.
Of course this is coming from someone who owns no graded cards and has never graded any cards.
I guess time will tell.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by corndog

We are very close to documented 1 million dollars in profit gained.

That number is several times larger if you subtract the dollar value of what the cards sold for with illegitimate grades by what the market value of the cards would be in authentic slabs. That's really what the "total loss" of this whole scheme is.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Astros19

I've stated before that I have a lot of vintage that belonged to my father inlaw. My mother inlaw has wanted me to try and sell them but I've convinced her to sit on things for a while. I want to see where all of this new info leads to. My thoughts are that someone will come up with a computer program that can detect alterations, and if and when that happens we will see a drastic change in how previously human graded cards are valued opposed to anything graded with the newer method of graded cards.
I would think I'm not the only one who sees this as a very realistic possibility. I'm guessing if something like this were to happen a lot of people with collections filled with human graded cards would be pretty nervous knowing that their collection is in danger of losing value because of the newest technology of grading cards.
I could see a time where a card graded by company XYZ who uses computer technology grades a card XYZ 7 outsells the old human graded PSA 9.
Of course this is coming from someone who owns no graded cards and has never graded any cards.
I guess time will tell.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

i could definitely see that happening in 20 to 30 years

[ken161]

While the exact circumstances of Amelia Earhart's last flight are debated by aviation historians, there is indisputable evidence of the fate of the PSA6 Look 'N See Amelia Earhart below.

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #23018032

1952 Topps Look 'N See Amelia Earhart #45

Value gain of $184.44

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from boilerjake as a PSA-6 on June 01, 2014 for $51.06. VCP info shown below at top of slab:



Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $235.50 on May 23, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1494869

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or edge trim pattern identifiers.
Red squares identify trimmed left edge.
No back scan was provided for the PSA 6.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

or you know, dont worry about the assigned grade, and buy nice looking slabs

But you can’t even do that and guarantee you’re not buying an altered card.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

But you can’t even do that and guarantee you’re not buying an altered card.

same as it ever was for sure

[houdini]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Unfounded, really? How do you or anyone else know what I know? The information I gather is being used, trust me. I would never be so reckless to post anything without having information to back it. The fact that I do not share it is my prerogative and out of respect to my sources. If you or anyone else do not believe it, no problem.

I am grateful to you for allowing these threads to thrive however I did not appreciate your burying my Huigens' submission thread in this thread. I think it stood on its own given the information presented but this is your house, not mine.

Greg

How do we know what you know? Think about that for a second. If what you say makes it so, then anyone can make any accusation and it would be founded because you don't know what they know.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying if you can't/won't post the proof, then don't say it is proven. You see?

That is my only point. I think it is fair and I stand behind it.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Astros19

I've stated before that I have a lot of vintage that belonged to my father inlaw. My mother inlaw has wanted me to try and sell them but I've convinced her to sit on things for a while. I want to see where all of this new info leads to. My thoughts are that someone will come up with a computer program that can detect alterations, and if and when that happens we will see a drastic change in how previously human graded cards are valued opposed to anything graded with the newer method of graded cards.
I would think I'm not the only one who sees this as a very realistic possibility. I'm guessing if something like this were to happen a lot of people with collections filled with human graded cards would be pretty nervous knowing that their collection is in danger of losing value because of the newest technology of grading cards.
I could see a time where a card graded by company XYZ who uses computer technology grades a card XYZ 7 outsells the old human graded PSA 9.
Of course this is coming from someone who owns no graded cards and has never graded any cards.
I guess time will tell.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I think machine grading is only a matter of time. I'd honestly be surprised if psa didn't already have a dedicated team looking into this.

I think having an automated grading process would hurt the hobby in the short term, but would be much better in the long run.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by houdini

How do we know what you know? Think about that for a second. If what you say makes it so, then anyone can make any accusation and it would be founded because you don't know what they know.

I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying if you can't/won't post the proof, then don't say it is proven. You see?

That is my only point. I think it is fair and I stand behind it.

*clap clap clap*

That's exactly what I was saying. 100% agree.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i could definitely see that happening in 20 to 30 years

IMO, you're off by an order of magnitude. The tech to enable this exists today. I think this could be the reality for grading inside of 5 years.

[Zhamlau]

Originally Posted by bensie

*clap clap clap*

That's exactly what I was saying. 100% agree.

Bensie honest question: do you know or talk to any of the people directly accused of trimming and grading sports cards for resale purposes?