PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by corndog

Who is this "we're" that you keep referring too?

The people that were trying to keep him from drawing his conclusions and only post facts - Houdini, Harry and myself are the first ones that come to mind.

I'm done talking about it. He did good work and if he comes back, great.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by qdoggmets

I may become target for saying this but I have read almost every post, podcast, and external article and I share every opinion in this thread about grading inconsistency. I have spoken to Steve Sloan about things before this exploded even. I have cards that may be infected. I am as neck deep as anyone else right now, but......there were a few posts that definitely had a leap of faith factor to them or an aspect of fact as its basis not shared or the chance of inproperly drawn conclusion.

I also warned about being careful about how you post before those leaping posts were added.

Everyone has to realize this is a war of wars. It is and was not more than that. These posts were to help keep an eye at protecting the people doing the good work so they can keep doing it. Makes sense right?

No one, especially me is suggesting the work being done is not fantastic, well needed, wanted and applauded at the highest level, however....If you think that if the FBI does not press the court with formal charges and PWCC feel in the right, that PWCC will not seek brand reputation damages and defamation retribution you are crazy.

We are talking about vaults that cost millions and revenues above 50 million. We are talking prison time and lawyer rates of 300 an hour or more.

The stakes are high as F. The intensity goes up and most of us our not used to playing a game at that level. It is and could be very easy for a weekend warrior to ruin his whole, literally, whole life by saying the wrong thing in a persistent, ignorant or even casual fashion.

Let’s for a moment assume PWCC claims you caused 3 million in damages. What is the value of your house, everything you own and everything you will make before you die or retire? Most people will never make 3 million total dollars. Not to strike fear, but do you want to go to war and fight that battle?

No. Of course not. The stakes are high but everyone has to step off the ledge. Even the lawyers at net54 are being cautious for a reason. What does that tell you? It is chess, not checkers. If you think you have enough game to stave off guys that have more resource than you from finding out who you are and bringing the contra to your door step you will be mistaken. Believe that. Most here are not so smart or paranoid to stay truly anonymous.

I am sure blowout for allowing and hosting the content has it own risks on behalf of its members. What happens if they get sued? I say keep up the good work but realize the extent of the battle and do not short change the risks all of us are exposed to. Right?

Serious question. Are there any instances (sans the Ruth example) where something posted was untrue?

[rcmb3220]

Here’s a good opinion on using anonymous sources.

https://johntreed.com/blogs/john-t-r...o-us-reporters

[SetBuilder]

Trimming, if done by an expert, with the right tools, and within the dimensional margin of error, is impossible to detect. Out of all the alterations, it's probably the hardest to detect, if not the hardest. The only safeguard is auction records to compare cards to, and why it's so important to make high resolution scans of every card and make those scans as widely available as possible.

Detecting botched trim jobs by people who don't know what they're doing makes graders feel good and lulls them into a false sense of superiority and security, when in fact, guys like Gary Moser are running circles around them, and laughing all the way to the bank.

[Onepocketj]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Trimming, if done by an expert, with the right tools, and within the dimensional margin of error, is impossible to detect. Out of all the alterations, it's probably the hardest to detect, if not the hardest. The only safeguard is auction records to compare cards to, and why it's so important to make high resolution scans of every card and make those scans as widely available as possible.

Detecting botched trim jobs by people who don't know what they're doing makes graders feel good and lulls them into a false sense of superiority and security, when in fact, guys like Gary Moser are running circles around them, and laughing all the way to the bank.

The really crazy part is when you see some of the submissions posted here where half of the submission was rejected and the others were proved trimmed here. What grader in their right mind would see that many altered cards and assume the rest were fine, especially when they are all from the same sets???

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

The really crazy part is when you see some of the submissions posted here where half of the submission was rejected and the others were proved trimmed here. What grader in their right mind would see that many altered cards and assume the rest were fine, especially when they are all from the same sets???

Remember they are not necessarily rejected for being altered. They are just not gradeable (min size, min grade, whatever).

[Bruins1993]

How many collectors with an altered card personally involved in the recent events have publicly (or privately for that matter) given a thank you statement to those doing all the hard work to expose deception?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

How many collectors with an altered card personally involved in the recent events have publicly (or privately for that matter) given a thank you statement to those doing all the hard work to expose deception?

since 95% dont know about it, or Blowout, not all that many

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Onepocketj

The really crazy part is when you see some of the submissions posted here where half of the submission was rejected and the others were proved trimmed here. What grader in their right mind would see that many altered cards and assume the rest were fine, especially when they are all from the same sets???

I think the graders did not say anything. They just kept the gravy train moving along.

One of the biggest changes that PSA needs to make is to empower the graders to reject an entire order if they suspect the entire order is full of altered cards.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I think the graders did not say anything. They just kept the gravy train moving along.

One of the biggest changes that PSA needs to make is to empower the graders to reject an entire order if they suspect the entire order is full of altered cards.

Correct. But the graders would need some objective criteria to apply when making this decision. Without objectivity, that’s how you make mistakes.

The biggest problem with grading is that it is considered by the masses to be objective gospel. It’s not. Every aspect of it is subjective. I think everyone would be a lot happier if they came to accept that grading is nothing more than an opinion.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

Correct. But the graders would need some objective criteria to apply when making this decision. Without objectivity, that’s how you make mistakes.



The biggest problem with grading is that it is considered by the masses to be objective gospel. It’s not. Every aspect of it is subjective. I think everyone would be a lot happier if they came to accept that grading is nothing more than an opinion.

Grading can never be what most in the hobby expect or want it to be. But there will be plenty who will proclaim otherwise out of self-interest. Everyone just needs to know this before purchasing a graded card.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I think the graders did not say anything. They just kept the gravy train moving along.

One of the biggest changes that PSA needs to make is to empower the graders to reject an entire order if they suspect the entire order is full of altered cards.

which makes sense to me, as they are paid either way

[VintageBrave]

Originally Posted by ken161

Since I know there are some very knowledgeable hobbyists on this thread, I would like to pose the following questions:

1) Have the card doctors reached the stage where they can consistently get trimmed vintage cards by a TPG?

2) How many other (perhaps less brazen) card doctors are out there?

3) Is it even more difficult to detect trimming on modern cards? It seems like most modern cards have smooth edges. Does trimming a modern card alter the edge texture?

Great questions. Here is my answers:

1. I think it is pretty obvious the only way TPG can detect trimming is if it was done poorly, or if they took too much off and the card is too small. And with many examples shown in this thread, TPG don’t seem too concerned about cards appearing to be too small.

2. I think we only caught the current guy because he was sloppy and greedy. This guy simply could have worked with raw cards with no photo trail and he would still be in business. The true professionals would be more careful and most likely will never be caught and their work will remain unknown. Common sense just tells us too many 100+ year old high-grade cards currently exist.

3. I believe modern cards having serial numbers on all major cards will limit the damage. Just reading the Trout thread shows the value in serial numbers for identifying specific cards.

[ThoseBackPages]

what i think needs to happen, at the very least:

(i realize i am preaching to the choir here)

- Graders: WHO are they?
We all know who Joe & Steve are, but we should see the graders names & faces on the
website for all to see

- Graders Qualifications: what are they?

- Transparency. What is being done about #SLABGATE?

enough is enough

(i guess these could be applied to the other two companies as well)

[KhalDrogo]

TBP, I think you meant to say public.

As a publicly traded company, I would think PSA has greater incentive to do something here. I don’t believe there is a grand conspiracy at the TPGs. There might be a few rotten apples, but I would be surprised if the extent was greater than that. They’ve made mistakes, but they can recover.

PSA is a victim in this also, and they have huge financial incentive to go after any individuals who knowingly submitted altered cards for grading.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

TBP, I think you meant to say public.

As a publicly traded company, I would think PSA has greater incentive to do something here. I don’t believe there is a grand conspiracy at the TPGs. There might be a few rotten apples, but I would be surprised if the extent was greater than that. They’ve made mistakes, but they can recover.

PSA is a victim in this also, and they have huge financial incentive to go after any individuals who knowingly submitted altered cards for grading.

you're correct. i meant Private more as not disclosing

i will edit

[ThoseBackPages]

as many of you know, and even fewer of you care, i love PSA

i have been a "slabhead' since returning from my first hobby retirement back in 2005
ive dealt with all three companies. PSA being miles ahead of the others for me

that being said, ive always, well 95+% of the time, been a "nines guy"
i own thousands of slabs. do i have some that are dirty? there is absolutely no way that i do NOT, after a dozen plus years of collecting them.

it is what it is.

will i still collect slabs? yea, i will. but i will pay less then i may have before #SLABGATE

i think the mistake that TPGs are making is that they think its just going to "go away"

we have the show opening in two weeks. i never condone violence, and i am NOT doing that here, but SOMETHING has to give.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

TBP, I think you meant to say public.



As a publicly traded company, I would think PSA has greater incentive to do something here. I don’t believe there is a grand conspiracy at the TPGs. There might be a few rotten apples, but I would be surprised if the extent was greater than that. They’ve made mistakes, but they can recover.



PSA is a victim in this also, and they have huge financial incentive to go after any individuals who knowingly submitted altered cards for grading.

The only duty they have, I feel, is to advertise how accurate their results are. It seems most obvious that they no longer have a 97 or 98 percent overall success rate, and for many sets that success rate may be closer to 75 percent.

[ThoseBackPages]

i also understand i am the "one word answer guy" here on BO.
"NICE" "LOVE IT" "PANTS DOWN" yadda yadda yadda

but, the hobby has done more for me then i could ever repay.

i am not a typer, so that is the main reason i do not type and type and type here.

like many of you, i have a youtube channel. it is there i try to express myself more clearly. ive been talking about #SLABGATE for a while there now. on my last video, a hobby friend of mine posted this as a comment, and i agree with it, here it is:

(talking about the upcoming National and "us" speaking up)


"This is a big deal. I see it as a pivotal moment in the Hobby. It’s power & money vs democracy.

It’s a small group of powerful actors (PSA, eBay, PWCC) with a vested interest in creating a model where cards are altered without disclosure and collectors ask no questions. This runs counter to the wishes of 99% of collectors.

If Brent Huigens walks away from this unscathed it means his vision of conserved cards defines the Hobby. In that case, I’m out. I need, no, I demand transparency in my card purchases. I won’t go along with that system.

Pivotal moment in the Hobby."

[KhalDrogo]

Preach TBP!

If nothing happens, the Marketplace Tenets will define the hobby going forward. An attempt at retroactively applying some ill-defined collection of rules that one company came up with, that few hobbyists agree with.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by qdoggmets

I may become target for saying this but I have read almost every post, podcast, and external article and I share every opinion in this thread about grading inconsistency. I have spoken to Steve Sloan about things before this exploded even. I have cards that may be infected. I am as neck deep as anyone else right now, but......there were a few posts that definitely had a leap of faith factor to them or an aspect of fact as its basis not shared or the chance of inproperly drawn conclusion.

I also warned about being careful about how you post before those leaping posts were added.

Everyone has to realize this is a war of wars. It is and was not more than that. These posts were to help keep an eye at protecting the people doing the good work so they can keep doing it. Makes sense right?

No one, especially me is suggesting the work being done is not fantastic, well needed, wanted and applauded at the highest level, however....If you think that if the FBI does not press the court with formal charges and PWCC feel in the right, that PWCC will not seek brand reputation damages and defamation retribution you are crazy.

We are talking about vaults that cost millions and revenues above 50 million. We are talking prison time and lawyer rates of 300 an hour or more.

The stakes are high as F. The intensity goes up and most of us our not used to playing a game at that level. It is and could be very easy for a weekend warrior to ruin his whole, literally, whole life by saying the wrong thing in a persistent, ignorant or even casual fashion.

Let’s for a moment assume PWCC claims you caused 3 million in damages. What is the value of your house, everything you own and everything you will make before you die or retire? Most people will never make 3 million total dollars. Not to strike fear, but do you want to go to war and fight that battle?

No. Of course not. The stakes are high but everyone has to step off the ledge. Even the lawyers at net54 are being cautious for a reason. What does that tell you? It is chess, not checkers. If you think you have enough game to stave off guys that have more resource than you from finding out who you are and bringing the contra to your door step you will be mistaken. Believe that. Most here are not so smart or paranoid to stay truly anonymous.

I am sure blowout for allowing and hosting the content has it own risks on behalf of its members. What happens if they get sued? I say keep up the good work but realize the extent of the battle and do not short change the risks all of us are exposed to. Right?

Blowout's risks are for content posted by Blowout (its employees and agents). They're not liable for content other people post on a message board.

If you hear people talking about Section 230, that's the law involved in this.

Back in the 1990s, Compuserve got sued for something one of their users posted on a message board. A court ruled that because they moderated the message board, they could be potentially liable for defamation by a user. Since the end result of that decision was going to be that you would either have completely unmoderated fora or no fora at all, Congress overturned it as part of the Communications Decency Act of 1996 (section 230 of that statute).

[tonedef2oo8]

Originally Posted by ConcernedCollec

Do you guys really think it is a good idea to be trashing Bobby?

After all he is the guy that got the buyers ID turned back on for you. Without that a lot of your discovery would be a lot harder.

I am sure he could just as easily turn it off....

Not obvious at all. You’re much smarter than everyone else robert.

These are words you never heard before...

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i also understand i am the "one word answer guy" here on BO.
"NICE" "LOVE IT" "PANTS DOWN" yadda yadda yadda

but, the hobby has done more for me then i could ever repay.

i am not a typer, so that is the main reason i do not type and type and type here.

like many of you, i have a youtube channel. it is there i try to express myself more clearly. ive been talking about #SLABGATE for a while there now. on my last video, a hobby friend of mine posted this as a comment, and i agree with it, here it is:

(talking about the upcoming National and "us" speaking up)


"This is a big deal. I see it as a pivotal moment in the Hobby. It’s power & money vs democracy.

It’s a small group of powerful actors (PSA, eBay, PWCC) with a vested interest in creating a model where cards are altered without disclosure and collectors ask no questions. This runs counter to the wishes of 99% of collectors.

If Brent Huigens walks away from this unscathed it means his vision of conserved cards defines the Hobby. In that case, I’m out. I need, no, I demand transparency in my card purchases. I won’t go along with that system.

Pivotal moment in the Hobby."

If 99% of collectors don't value altered cards as you state, then card prices should drop precipitously as more and more people learn how ineffective the grading companies really are. I agree the sooner everyone knows the better.

But we know plenty of "investors"...and criminals....will do what they can to milk the cash cow as long as possible and find ways to make people forget, including finding ways to exonerate Huigens, PWCC and Moser. Naturally these represent the "power and money" people, but they're all just as fake as the altered cards are. How long can they last in a fake hobby?

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:25790667

1948 Leaf #76 Ted Williams SGC 4.5 to PSA 5
Alteration types: Trimming

Sold on 3/17/2016 as a SGC 4.5 by eBay seller carterscards2006 to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $586.00
Consigned to PWCC and first sold on 7/14/2016 as a PSA 5 for $1,080.00
Final price: $1,080.00
Value gain: $494.00


This card was lightly trimmed on the right border to make its centering improve and also to slightly improve a soft lower right corner, which became sharper after the trim (see detail in first photo). This is the second altered 1948 Leaf #76 Ted Williams we've found, the first of which was uncovered by Corndog back in Post #1302.

The green boxes show the areas that were trimmed. The red circles on the back are the common print marks which confirm that the SGC 4.5 and the PSA 5 are one and the same. Please note: The Vintage Card Prices link below will send you to a listing of all the SGC 4.5 examples of this card recently sold, and not to this specific card detailed here. It is another drawback to the new VCP website design.


SGC 4.5: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/b...6/42368/SGC/55
PSA 5: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1305283

[Bruins1993]

I get a strong feeling this thread would vanish fast on CU and never see the light of day! And Leon (http://autographplanet.com/forum/ex-...-stolen-items-) saying "And those guys doing all of the outing could be Peter Nash or worse. How do you know they aren't? I imagine some of the guys are decent guys but without knowing who they are how do you know? I could almost guarantee some are low life criminals," (http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...6&postcount=98) I find absolutely bizarre! Keep up the good work