PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by salthill

Rake them over the coals for not honoring their guarantee but folding the corner back isn’t doctoring or altering it. (Otherwise anyone who’s ever tried to take the bow out of a chrome card by putting it inside a heavy book is altering the card.)

Unless you get too “aggressive” (PSA’s term). Then it would be subject to N-5.

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:24507433

1954 Parkhurst #41 Gordie Howe PSA 6 to PSA 7
Alteration types: Trimming

Sold on 6/21/2015 as a PSA 6 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $278.88
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 12/20/2015 as a PSA 7 for $382.22
Final price: $382.22
Value gain: $103.34


Here is another trimmed 1954 Parkhurst card. It is the second trimmed Gordy Howe that's been uncovered, joining the PSA 8 card found in Post #3855. The larger purple circles detail a unique print flaw present on both images, proving they are the same card. The green boxes show the trimmed borders. It seems many of these trimmed cards from sets like 1948 Leaf baseball or 1954 Parkhurst hockey require plastic to be placed behind them inside the PSA holder after they are trimmed. Seems like that might be an indicator that they were altered, no?



PSA 6: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1132228
PSA 7: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1201742

[T206Collector]

If you read all of his “Taking My Hacks” that resemble anything approaching a response to criticism, you start to see several obvious themes — Joe has extraordinarily thin skin; and Joe thinks we should all just shut up and thank him for leaving the hobby in a better place than where he found it.



In his moving: “Taking My Hacks: Giving Back Moves the Hobby Forward” on May 15, 2017, he writes:

“Ask yourself if the businesses you support are those you feel are giving back, helping to ensure our endeavor is an even better one for the next generation and beyond.”

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-hobby-forward


Reminds me of Colonel Jessup...

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Thank you for posting this. I'm surprised I've never heard about this, given how insane it is. For those who don't feel like clicking the link, back in 2016 PSA damaged a card while holdering it. Instead of buying the card back, they repaired the damage and then re-slabbed with the same exact grade as before...

Here's a before and after showing how PSA altered the card:

This is crazy.

Also, following the "blaming" pattern that T206Collector is highlighting from PSA. While PSA (Joe Orlando) did "fix" their mistake, they seem to have also cast blame on the original seller of the damaged card. Like it was the seller's guarantee on the grade and cards condition, not PSA.

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:27581433

1954 Parkhurst #100 Terry Sawchuk Stops Boom Boom PSA 5 to PSA 7
Alteration types: Trimming

Sold on 4/27/2017 as a PSA 5 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $81.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 9/26/2017 as a PSA 7 for $222.50
Final price: $222.50
Value gain: $141.50


Yet again we have another trimmed 1954 Parkhurst hockey card which requires an interior plastic sleeve placed inside the PSA holder to keep it from moving around inside. Green boxes show the border trims. Purple circles on the back are print spots and/or paper fiber which confirm that the two images are the same card.



PSA 5: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1468731
PSA 7: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1552302

[corndog]

PSA Cert #42775233

1967 Topps Tom Seaver RC #581

Value gain of $777.98

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-7.5 on November 12, 2018 for $1,147.02.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1851750
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $1,925.00 on March 17, 2019.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1926230

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of added black ink to hide print flaws.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #42775234

1968 Topps Nolan Ryan RC #177

Value gain of $1,800.10

This card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) from PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-7.5 on December 06, 2018 for $1,750.00.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1868209
Same card was sold by PWCC (Brent and Betsy Huigens) as a PSA-8 for $3,550.10 on April 14, 2019.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1959739

Yellow circles are print or fiber identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of added ink to hide print flaws.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by salthill

Rake them over the coals for not honoring their guarantee but folding the corner back isn’t doctoring or altering it. (Otherwise anyone who’s ever tried to take the bow out of a chrome card by putting it inside a heavy book is altering the card.)

The issue here is that a card with peeled corner is maybe a VG-EX? Not a NM-MT. So they should have reholdered the cards as a PSA 4, and refunded the difference to the owner. I wouldn't call this an alteration either, but the way they handled it was to sweep the issue under the rug.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by rogermaris

Thank you for posting this. I'm surprised I've never heard about this, given how insane it is. For those who don't feel like clicking the link, back in 2016 PSA damaged a card while holdering it. Instead of buying the card back, they repaired the damage and then re-slabbed with the same exact grade as before...

Here's a before and after showing how PSA altered the card:

This is unbelievable.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Did they contract that one out to one of their doctor submitters or do it in house

In house I would guess. It's not a difficult repair.

[HarryLime]

Joe's poor communications skills are legendary and have been for years. That's why Steve was such a breath of fresh air when he came in because he was honest, genuine, and as transparent as he could be given his position.

If there's one thing I'll say in Joe's defense it's that his job is to increase revenue and serve the shareholders. To an outsider, how would one separate oneself from their competition in this industry? You certainly don't want to say "basically, all we do is measure the card, measure its centering, see if their are any print defects or surface abrasions, and then gauge the corners." That makes it sound like ANYONE can be a grader and that's definitely not true.

So I think a lot of times that he's making some less-than-strategic comments it's because he's trying to explain WHY PSA was better than their competition. He was thinking of the short term without thinking of the long term. "It's not just science, it's art, too" but in a much worse way that is obviously now making him and PSA look bad.

My point is, I think it's just talk from a company president who was responding to whatever fire was raging at that time in the hobby. I wouldn't take it as gospel. Hopefully, Steve handles all future public communication going forward. It's a smarter PR move, too, since he wasn't even there for any of it.

Arthur

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:41600030

1909-11 T206 Sweet Caporal Walter Johnson Portrait SGC 4 to PSA 5 (w/ PWCC-HE sticker)
Alteration types: Chemical cleaning, crease pressed out

Sold on 9/10/2017 as a SGC 4 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $2,022.00
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 1/13/2019 as a PSA 5 for $11,212.13
Final price: $11,212.13
Value gain: $9,190.13!


This card has been chemically cleaned to remove a brown stain on the back. Not only is the card's reverse noticeably whiter when comparing the SGC 4 ("before") with the PSA 5 ("after") photos, but the chemical treatment has caused loss of the over 100-year-old red inks in the Sweet Caporal back. This is another card purchased by Gary Moser's whitman111 eBay ID that has been altered and personally reviewed by Brent Huigens, who awarded it PWCC's highest sticker, the PWCC-HE, which means it is, in his opinion, in the top 5% of cards of its class for eye appeal.

Furthermore, the SGC 4 description speaks of "an exceedingly light crease to the upper right corner and some mild back staining" on the card. The staining is visibly gone from the PSA 5, but there is no mention of the crease in PWCC's auction description either. I believe that the crease was pressed out by the card doctor.

Red circles on the front and blue circles on the back are marks common to both images, proving it is the same card. The purple shape on the back shows where the stain was located. This card was sent in via e-mail tip.



SGC 4: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1539614
PSA 5 (w/ PWCC-HE sticker): https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1886081

[dfr52]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

The issue here is that a card with peeled corner is maybe a VG-EX? Not a NM-MT. So they should have reholdered the cards as a PSA 4, and refunded the difference to the owner. I wouldn't call this an alteration either, but the way they handled it was to sweep the issue under the rug.

I wouldn't call it an alteration either if it was submitted to PSA or sold raw but I do think PSA handled it terribly inappropriately.

[dfr52]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Joe's poor communications skills are legendary and have been for years. That's why Steve was such a breath of fresh air when he came in because he was honest, genuine, and as transparent as he could be given his position.

If there's one thing I'll say in Joe's defense it's that his job is to increase revenue and serve the shareholders. To an outsider, how would one separate oneself from their competition in this industry? You certainly don't want to say "basically, all we do is measure the card, measure its centering, see if their are any print defects or surface abrasions, and then gauge the corners." That makes it sound like ANYONE can be a grader and that's definitely not true.

So I think a lot of times that he's making some less-than-strategic comments it's because he's trying to explain WHY PSA was better than their competition. He was thinking of the short term without thinking of the long term. "It's not just science, it's art, too" but in a much worse way that is obviously now making him and PSA look bad.

My point is, I think it's just talk from a company president who was responding to whatever fire was raging at that time in the hobby. I wouldn't take it as gospel. Hopefully, Steve handles all future public communication going forward. It's a smarter PR move, too, since he wasn't even there for any of it.

Arthur

I agree with you on Sloan, he seems to have a different approach than Orlando and I hope it stays that way.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Joe's poor communications skills are legendary and have been for years. That's why Steve was such a breath of fresh air when he came in because he was honest, genuine, and as transparent as he could be given his position.

If there's one thing I'll say in Joe's defense it's that his job is to increase revenue and serve the shareholders. To an outsider, how would one separate oneself from their competition in this industry? You certainly don't want to say "basically, all we do is measure the card, measure its centering, see if their are any print defects or surface abrasions, and then gauge the corners." That makes it sound like ANYONE can be a grader and that's definitely not true.

So I think a lot of times that he's making some less-than-strategic comments it's because he's trying to explain WHY PSA was better than their competition. He was thinking of the short term without thinking of the long term. "It's not just science, it's art, too" but in a much worse way that is obviously now making him and PSA look bad.

My point is, I think it's just talk from a company president who was responding to whatever fire was raging at that time in the hobby. I wouldn't take it as gospel. Hopefully, Steve handles all future public communication going forward. It's a smarter PR move, too, since he wasn't even there for any of it.

Arthur

without some sweeping changes announced this week, it may be too late

[ThoseBackPages]

Corndog, thank you for posting the Seaver & Ryan's, this is very important

this may sound bad, and is not meant to be a slight to BODA or others that are contributing to #SLABGATE, as it is ALL important, but...

posting grade bumps of Johnny Hobby Nobody is not going to have nearly the impact as Seaver, Ryan, Rose, Mantle, etc.

Start hammering those high end Post War Legendary Cards, and maybe people will start to really get fired up

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Corndog, thank you for posting the Seaver & Ryan's, this is very important

this may sound bad, and is not meant to be a slight to BODA or others that are contributing to #SLABGATE, as it is ALL important, but...

posting grade bumps of Johnny Hobby Nobody is not going to have nearly the impact as Seaver, Ryan, Rose, Mantle, etc.

Start hammering those high end Post War Legendary Cards, and maybe people will start to really get fired up

Every altered card adds up and deserves to be posted. We're approaching $1.5 million in PWCC sales, which includes the Mickey Mantles just as much as the Virgil Trucks.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Every altered card adds up and deserves to be posted. We're approaching $1.5 million in PWCC sales, which includes the Mickey Mantles just as much as the Virgil Trucks.

No, i understand that.

But to get the attention of the masses, showing them cards they know, love, and are very familiar with, will (IMO) have more of an impact

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Every altered card adds up and deserves to be posted. We're approaching $1.5 million in PWCC sales, which includes the Mickey Mantles just as much as the Virgil Trucks.

Exactly. As these threads seem to be the leading source for customers to find out about which cards have been altered (PWCC or elsewhere), each reveal helps someone.

[pspa123]

I wonder who's recoloring all these cards.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

I wonder who's recoloring all these cards.

I don't think it is always Moser, even if the cards are purchased in their unaltered state using his eBay ID.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I don't think it is always Moser, even if the cards are purchased in their unaltered state using his eBay ID.

I agree. I'm wondering if it's ever Gary.

[superdan49]

PSA Cert #:25101979

1933 Goudey #96 Jim DeShong PSA 5 to PSA 6
Alteration types: Chemical soaking, trimming

Sold on 9/3/2014 as a PSA 5 by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser's eBay ID) for $156.23
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/6/2016 as a PSA 6 for $326.00
Final price: $326.00
Value gain: $169.77


This card is not a big gainer, but it shows the skill of this card doctor. The card was first soaked in a chemical solution to whiten it. Then, when wet, I believe the card was pressed to slightly expand it. It was then that trims were made to the bottom corners, most notable the bottom right corner. Thus the card will still measure correctly when dried.

The green box shows a detailed image of lower corners that were trimmed and/or cleaned. The red circles are the print marks and paper fibers common to both cards. This card was also submitted via e-mail tip.



PSA 5: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1028373
PSA 6: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1242128

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Corndog, thank you for posting the Seaver & Ryan's, this is very important

this may sound bad, and is not meant to be a slight to BODA or others that are contributing to #SLABGATE, as it is ALL important, but...

posting grade bumps of Johnny Hobby Nobody is not going to have nearly the impact as Seaver, Ryan, Rose, Mantle, etc.

Start hammering those high end Post War Legendary Cards, and maybe people will start to really get fired up

They may not seem it to you but to a lot of vintage and prewar collectors those cards are just as important.

One of the unique characteristics of this scandal compared to past scandals is the lack of "not me's." The hobby has operated under the assumption for years that trimmed cards occasionally slip by the graders but it only happens on the really high-dollar, high-profile cards and that the 99%, "the rest of us," don't really have much to worry about. It's extremely important to show, irrefutably, every collector that their niche got compromised; there's no low too low for what Brent and Gary would tarnish. You only collect low-grade $50 cards? They altered those, too.

All of this needs to be thrust in all collectors' faces until they're forced to accept the lousy truth -- third-party grading needs a reboot. That's the only outcome. TPGing will never go away, as much as some of you wish it would. It's not that it's too big to fail it's that it's too wanted to fail. People desperately want the peace of mind and value that third-party grading provides, even if it isn't entirely founded on facts. People want the registry. People want slabs. People want a clearly defined market. People want all of this so much that they're willing to accept an amount of denial they otherwise wouldn't in something else.

Right or wrong, that's how it is. You can scream at the clouds all day long but it won't change a thing about the long-term landscape. This thread proves that there can be large changes in the short term though.

Arthur

[ntgm37]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

No, i understand that.

But to get the attention of the masses, showing them cards they know, love, and are very familiar with, will (IMO) have more of an impact

They have a certain threshold to meet for the FBI and other places to even consider getting involved. That has been met, but it took alot of the lesser cards to make it. Every $ is huge at the moment.