PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by SpartanWarrior

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As I indicated Dick always maintained that he did not trim cards. But that doesn't mean the card wasn't sent to him for cleaning/pressing. Dick's work often increased the size of cards just slightly - making a trim job just a bit easier.

He used a mixture of oil based solvents to clean/brighten cards, remove residue, etc. Those solvents were a combination pressed and air dried out and returned to owners.

I'd point out you didn't offer any names. Its of no use to comment on card doctoring without shining the light on those that do it.

Ok Mr. Anonymous. I comment on all sorts of things. Did not know there were rules.

That card was not cleaned or pressed. The stains were all there in the 8.5 that existed on the 6.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by SpartanWarrior

Unless their boss handed them the card, then its smooth sailing all the way home!

My point was that the 3 guys assigning grades to cards at SGC in 2013 could identify a trimmed 36 WWG.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

My point was that the 3 guys assigning grades to cards at SGC in 2013 could identify a trimmed 36 WWG.

I could be mistaken but I think Derek Grady and Lee Iskowitz were gone by then. The graders who were left had probably never seen more than a handful of 1936 WWG cards. The grading room at that point probably resembled weeks 4 - 6 of the 1987 NFL season.

[pip]

Spartanwarrior,

Got to agree with CaptSpaulding here. I don't think anyone on your list is the culprit. I doubt Towle had anything to do with this. I don't think it was Forman either. The DiMaggio from that set is always a little wide left to right and is only occasionally small top to bottom. He would know that and would not likely try to pass off such a ridiculously narrow card. Only a stupid bastard who knew nothing about 36 WW's would try such a thing.

The good news is that PSA is only down two strikes on high grade DiMaggio rookies. Time to choke up and just make contact:

https://www.psacard.com/auctionprice...28806560973782

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

I could be mistaken but I think Derek Grady and Lee Iskowitz were gone by then. The graders who were left had probably never seen more than a handful of 1936 WWG cards. The grading room at that point probably resembled weeks 4 - 6 of the 1987 NFL season.

You are correct. Derek left SGC in 2011 and Lee had left well before that, I think. Dave Forman stepped in as a grader after Derek left. In 2013 it was Bob Luce, Scot Hileman and Dave Forman. As far as graders go, to me that is a top notch class.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

You are correct. Derek left SGC in 2011 and Lee had left well before that, I think. Dave Forman stepped in as a grader after Derek left. In 2013 it was Bob Luce, Scot Hileman and Dave Forman. As far as graders go, to me that is a top notch class.

Didn't know Forman stepped in like that. Was he still grading full time in April 2013? Not sure I would hang my hat on the grading skills of the other two in 2013. Certainly not Luce. I'd have to go through some threads here and check but there were some other altered high value vintage cards that were graded during this time, weren't there?

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pip

Didn't know Forman stepped in like that. Was he still grading full time in April 2013?

Dunno if Dave was full time or not but he started in the grading room after Grady left in 2011. My hunch is he is still in there today in some capacity.

Originally Posted by pip

Not sure I would hang my hat on the grading skills of the other two in 2013. Certainly not Luce. I'd have to go through some threads here and check but there were some other altered high value vintage cards that were graded during this time, weren't there?

There is an overwhelming quantity of bad stuff ending up in all TPG holders. IMO, speaking specifically to the veteran graders at PSA and SGC, an extremely insignificant percentage is from a lack of experience, poor night of sleep the night before, forgetting to use a ruler or black light, etc etc.

We should all be well past the time where we can classify a bad card getting into a holder as being from inexperience.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

Didn't know Forman stepped in like that. Was he still grading full time in April 2013? Not sure I would hang my hat on the grading skills of the other two in 2013. Certainly not Luce. I'd have to go through some threads here and check but there were some other altered high value vintage cards that were graded during this time, weren't there?

Has there ever been a time period when altered high value vintage cards weren't being graded?

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Has there ever been a time period when altered high value vintage cards weren't being graded?

Precisely for PSA it was the first card graded. The notion that bad cards in holders is a result of senior graders not knowing an issue is utter BS. That they are all incompetent and we are better at their job than they are is laughable. There are about 12 to 15 guys who have been in the grading room and some are still there who are incredible at detecting alterations, authenticating and assigning a grade to a piece of cardboard. Bad cards rarely get into holders because of incompetence.

No wonder the FBI will never be able to get a case to the DOJ. We have experienced (or maybe not) hobbyist who now explain altered 36 WWG Dimaggios getting into holders is because the grading service does not know 36 WWG.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Precisely for PSA it was the first card graded. The notion that bad cards in holders is a result of senior graders not knowing an issue is utter BS. That they are all incompetent and we are better at their job than they are is laughable. There are about 12 to 15 guys who have been in the grading room and some are still there who are incredible at detecting alterations, authenticating and assigning a grade to a piece of cardboard. Bad cards rarely get into holders because of incompetence.

No wonder the FBI will never be able to get a case to the DOJ. We have experienced (or maybe not) hobbyist who now explain altered 36 WWG Dimaggios getting into holders is because the grading service does not know 36 WWG.

TPGs themselves say their error rate is ~5% which is more than reasonable since grading is “just humans looking at cards”. So to say there isn’t some sort of base incompetence rate is laughable.

However for certain cards, such as the card in question, one should assume the incompetence rate should certainly be as close to zero as can be.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

TPGs themselves say their error rate is ~5% which is more than reasonable since grading is “just humans looking at cards”. So to say there isn’t some sort of base incompetence rate is laughable.

However for certain cards, such as the card in question, one should assume the incompetence rate should certainly be as close to zero as can be.

Learn to read or have some read it to you. I never wrote that incompetence was not present, my little donut.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by pip

The Memory Lane victim -- also the person who crossed it to PSA -- is the current owner. That's my hypothesis. You're probably right. It's anyone's guess as to who (if anyone) might take responsibility for this. Then again, once it's in a PSA slab, I guess it's all good, right?

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see what PSA does but if the owner is happy with the altered 7, wouldn't be surprised to see PSA ignore the trimmed edges.
If PSA does admit fault and falls back on their guarantee language to avoid payment, I would enjoy seeing the current owner go after the individual who trimmed the card.
Depending on who that was, SGC and/or PSA might be willing to payout, just to keep the case out of court.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see what PSA does but if the owner is happy with the altered 7, wouldn't be surprised to see PSA ignore the trimmed edges.
If PSA does admit fault and falls back on their guarantee language to avoid payment, I would enjoy seeing the current owner go after the individual who trimmed the card.
Depending on who that was, SGC and/or PSA might be willing to payout, just to keep the case out of court.

Unless you and pip know something that I don't about this, we do not know who crossed the card into a PSA 7 and while it is most likely the ML buyer, it may not be. Could be the consignor as there is always the chance the card did not actually sell.

We know SGC was made aware that their 8.5 is the trimmed down SGC 6 but does PSA even know that their 7 is the trimmed down SGC 6?

Lastly, the owner would have to be unhappy with the card to make any claim against PSA and we do not even know if that person is aware the card is trimmed or even cares.

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Unless you and pip know something that I don't about this, we do not know who crossed the card into a PSA 7 and while it is most likely the ML buyer, it may not be. Could be the consignor as there is always the chance the card did not actually sell.

We know SGC was made aware that their 8.5 is the trimmed down SGC 6 but does PSA even know that their 7 is the trimmed down SGC 6?

Lastly, the owner would have to be unhappy with the card to make any claim against PSA and we do not even know if that person is aware the card is trimmed or even cares.

Reread what I posted. I fully admit this is a fluid discussion, as both the owner and future grading opinions are currently unknown.

Unlike SGC, I don't belive PSA has publicly commented on the topic but they should be aware of the discussion. If you look back at PSA's Instagram post that Superdan49 shared, someone tagged this thread in the comments.
I'm assuming there has been additional notice as well.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see what PSA does but if the owner is happy with the altered 7, wouldn't be surprised to see PSA ignore the trimmed edges.
If PSA does admit fault and falls back on their guarantee language to avoid payment, I would enjoy seeing the current owner go after the individual who trimmed the card.
Depending on who that was, SGC and/or PSA might be willing to payout, just to keep the case out of court.

My best guess is the current owner is fine with it and neither PSA or SGC would do anything about it in either case. Stuff like this usually gets whitewashed and the TPG machine goes on.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Reread what I posted. I fully admit this is a fluid discussion, as both the owner and future grading opinions are currently unknown.

Unlike SGC, I don't belive PSA has publicly commented on the topic but they should be aware of the discussion. If you look back at PSA's Instagram post that Superdan49 shared, someone tagged this thread in the comments.
I'm assuming there has been additional notice as well.

I did reread it. You wrote

Originally Posted by auburn35

Yeah, we'll have to wait and see what PSA does but if the owner is happy with the altered 7, wouldn't be surprised to see PSA ignore the trimmed edges.

This suggested, to me and why I was confused, that PSA has been officially put on notice. I am not IG so I have no idea what had been posted but we both know that a 100K card in question will need more than just an IG tag.

And as was just stated, whether or not the owner is happy with the card will have no impact on what PSA does. If the owner is unhappy and decides to get a lawyer then that might get interesting.

It really would not shock me if the consignor of the card to ML was the one who crossed it over to PSA. Lots of unknowns with this one other than the fact that the card that resides in the 7 holder is trimmed.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

Learn to read or have some read it to you. I never wrote that incompetence was not present, my little donut.

Your sourness continues to lend credence to what others in this thread have said about you… that you’ve been complicit in the fraud in some way in the past.

No, you never said incompetence wasn’t present, but you all but discount it in your posts, likely knowledge gained from your past involvement.

Oh, yeah, want a cookie?

[pspa123]

I would also tend to discount the likelihood that incompetence explains a lot when it comes to the slabbing of altered high end cards, at least on the vintage side. Would you like to falsely accuse me of something as well?

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

I did reread it. You wrote This suggested, to me and why I was confused, that PSA has been officially put on notice. I am not IG so I have no idea what had been posted but we both know that a 100K card in question will need more than just an IG tag.

And as was just stated, whether or not the owner is happy with the card will have no impact on what PSA does. If the owner is unhappy and decides to get a lawyer then that might get interesting.

It really would not shock me if the consignor of the card to ML was the one who crossed it over to PSA. Lots of unknowns with this one other than the fact that the card that resides in the 7 holder is trimmed.

Sorry for the confusion. In my response to PIP, you quoted, I was trying to suggest there's several unknowns, that you're also acknowledging.
What PSA/SGC will do, Who is the owner (PSA submitter), Will they be happy with PSA possibly backing the 7 grade, who was the 2013 buyer and SGC submitter...lots of questions.

I'm not suggesting the IG posts are the only communication to PSA, just one example shared in this thread.
SGC has supposedly reached out to ML to get in touch with the buyer and review the card. Assuming that occurs, the buyer (if not already aware) will will become aware of the situation.

[pspa123]

Imagine if we knew who bought it out of Legendary, altered it, and submitted it to SGC, and who graded it. Of course in this hobby there is zero transparency. One of these answers is knowable, and likely all of them, but people protect each other. That's the beauty of card doctoring.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Your sourness continues to lend credence to what others in this thread have said about you… that you’ve been complicit in the fraud in some way in the past.

No, you never said incompetence wasn’t present, but you all but discount it in your posts, likely knowledge gained from your past involvement.

Oh, yeah, want a cookie?

You have never added a single thing to any of these threads other than to make snide comments about or to those who do contribute. You are opposed to grading and do not submit cards yet you post like you are an expert. Add something of relevance to one of these threads for a change.

Please site the source that shows that the margin of error in TPG is ~5%. Pretty amateur statement since there are 4 key grading services presently. They cannot all share the same margin of error. And is that 5% figure pre or post pandemic? Big difference.

The point I have made every time I post on this subject is that at the senior level of grading there is very little inexperience and incompetence.

And for the record I have never been formally or informally complicit with fraud that takes place in this hobby. As I have stated before when this has been stated, you all need to start another thread about all the fraud I have committed. The continued references are tired.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Sorry for the confusion. In my response to PIP, you quoted, I was trying to suggest there's several unknowns, that you're also acknowledging.
What PSA/SGC will do, Who is the owner (PSA submitter), Will they be happy with PSA possibly backing the 7 grade, who was the 2013 buyer and SGC submitter...lots of questions.

I'm not suggesting the IG posts are the only communication to PSA, just one example shared in this thread.
SGC has supposedly reached out to ML to get in touch with the buyer and review the card. Assuming that occurs, the buyer (if not already aware) will will become aware of the situation.

Gotcha. I thought there was something going on to which I was not aware...beyond the life on IG, that is.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Imagine if we knew who bought it out of Legendary, altered it, and submitted it to SGC, and who graded it. Of course in this hobby there is zero transparency. One of these answers is knowable, and likely all of them, but people protect each other. That's the beauty of card doctoring.

As you know, some of the guys who have doctored the most cards and made the most money do not even have threads about them. Their names are barely mentioned, if ever.

It really is a closed loop too for most of these cards because there is so much money to be spread around and it benefits so many parties.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

As you know, some of the guys who have doctored the most cards and made the most money do not even have threads about them. Their names are barely mentioned, if ever.

It really is a closed loop too for most of these cards because there is so much money to be spread around and it benefits so many parties.

Yeah. Card doctors are the backbone on which it's all built, and at least to a significant extent, the TPGs and AHs go along. Only the collector loses, that is if the collector cares.

[pip]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Has there ever been a time period when altered high value vintage cards weren't being graded?

I don't think it is unfair to say that at certain periods of time during particular grading regimes (or at certain venues), more altered cards were stabbed than during other grading occasions.