PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by corndog

It's not really a question of maybe.
There are some that I know are trimmed but the images to compare them too are too blurry or taken at weird angles or bad lighting.
That part is frustrating - especially when you've been looking through tons of images and finally find it but can't use it.

that is a good point, that i had not thought of.

[corndog]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

I bet most of these cards measure which is why they are getting by psa. We have the ability to Monday morning quarterback these cards next to each other and see the difference, they don’t. I read they take 60 seconds per card.

I’d say you guys have done enough to make change, but have to remember pwcc preps some of this stuff months in advance so it’s not going to be instant. I think how PSA responds is what we need to be concerned about. Implementing so new standards is obvious and maybe even employing some of you.

Keep in mind if they did this for every single card the wait times would literally multiple by 10

I seriously doubt that.
If you have been following the posted crap that was graded by them you would know that it is a combination of incompetence and pressure to speed check cards. It's been proven again and again that they don't use the tools provided to them to do their job. PSA is a broken joke.

[SetBuilder]

I think this thread proves how behind the times the TPAs are. We have a member here unearthing trimmed and altered cards every single day just searching through sales records (awesome work, Dan!).

I've even looked into finding a way to develop my own side-by-side image comparison software (despite my lack of programming skills) that can be implemented for a larger scale crowd-searching campaign.

Had the TPAs been more forward thinking, they would have already developed proprietary software that does what everyone here is trying to do manually. I think what the T206 scandal exposed was that the TPAs may not even keep scans of all the cards they grade! A $200 million company! To think that they're suddenly going to catch these altered cards is wishful thinking.

No excuse for PSA and the others now. We've given them the blueprint. If obvious altered cards keep showing up on the market years from now, then we can officially say the TPAs were negligent.

[ThoseBackPages]

has the mantle been paid for yet?

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

has the mantle been paid for yet?

Yes, actually it has. On page 3 of FB left right now.

Buyer now has 100% bid activity with PWCC. 55 bids on 20 items. Not winning many.

https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI....p2471758.m4792

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Yes, actually it has. On page 3 of FB left right now.

Buyer now has 100% bid activity with PWCC. 55 bids on 20 items. Not winning many.

https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI....p2471758.m4792

probably not much of an eBayer, more of an Auction House collector

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

probably not much of an eBayer, more of an Auction House collector

Hence why PWCC's sales won't be significantly impacted by all of this.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Bad look, no doubt.

question for BODA, how many "maybe" slabs are you going through before posting one "for sure"?

In general or with the Moser investigation?

There is one company in particular (not named in all of this so far) that I believe has gotten PSA to certify millions of dollars of their trimmed cards. If this were to come to light, it would be the end of PSA. But given the type of cards trimmed, it would be impossible to prove unless a former employee or whistleblower had proof to leak to Blowout, the media, or the FBI.

Regarding Moser, I'd say for every one of his cards I know to be trimmed there are two I cannot expose here because the pre-trimmed photo is too blurry or cannot be found. But again, with Moser we've uncovered maybe 1/100th of his trimming output so far.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

In general or with the Moser investigation?

There is one company in particular (not named in all of this so far) that I believe has gotten PSA to certify millions of dollars of their trimmed cards. If this were to come to light, it would be the end of PSA. But given the type of cards trimmed, it would be impossible to prove unless a former employee or whistleblower had proof to leak to Blowout, the media, or the FBI.

Regarding Moser, I'd say for every one of his cards I know to be trimmed there are two I cannot expose here because the pre-trimmed photo is too blurry or cannot be found. But again, with Moser we've uncovered maybe 1/100th of his trimming output so far.

very interesting indeed Dan. same "problems" that corndog mentioned with the poor images from the past

are there photos of Moser?

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by boston12

Why is PSA so hard on Tom Brady 2000 contenders for trimming but all these slip through. Many of those are out of the box small and still get tagged. Double standard I think.

don't forget about 93' Jeter SP's-----total crap on PSA to get collectors to think they are "experts"

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

very interesting indeed Dan. same "problems" that corndog mentioned with the poor images from the past

are there photos of Moser?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I think this thread proves how behind the times the TPAs are. We have a member here unearthing trimmed and altered cards every single day just searching through sales records (awesome work, Dan!).

I've even looked into finding a way to develop my own side-by-side image comparison software (despite my lack of programming skills) that can be implemented for a larger scale crowd-searching campaign.

Had the TPAs been more forward thinking, they would have already developed proprietary software that does what everyone here is trying to do manually. I think what the T206 scandal exposed was that the TPAs may not even keep scans of all the cards they grade! A $200 million company! To think that they're suddenly going to catch these altered cards is wishful thinking.

No excuse for PSA and the others now. We've given them the blueprint. If obvious altered cards keep showing up on the market years from now, then we can officially say the TPAs were negligent.

Thank you for the support! I do believe that changes for the better are occurring behind the scenes at PSA and BGS. I've had multiple parties confirm this to me in private messages or e-mails. Whether these changes are enough to end the rampant fraud remains to be seen. Call me a hopeful skeptic.

I think we can officially call the TPGs both negligent and incompetent, as you can witness yourself by viewing some of their greatest hits in this thread. I think we can call PWCC negligent too, as they knew Gary Moser's history of fraud yet gave him a second chance and acted as his main card broker.

My goal is to expose the past for what it is, warts and all, and to make the future of the hobby better. But we are in stage 1 of the exposure of the past, which is like a disease. The cure? Adjust to the new reality. Collectors need to take Dr. Mario's red pill

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by superdan49

There is one company in particular (not named in all of this so far) that I believe has gotten PSA to certify millions of dollars of their trimmed cards.

It's sad that simply buying a fancy paper trimmer can put you on a path to a lucrative career as a "doctor."

Who needs college anymore?

[rcmb3220]

Originally Posted by superdan49

In general or with the Moser investigation?

There is one company in particular (not named in all of this so far) that I believe has gotten PSA to certify millions of dollars of their trimmed cards. If this were to come to light, it would be the end of PSA. But given the type of cards trimmed, it would be impossible to prove unless a former employee or whistleblower had proof to leak to Blowout, the media, or the FBI.

Regarding Moser, I'd say for every one of his cards I know to be trimmed there are two I cannot expose here because the pre-trimmed photo is too blurry or cannot be found. But again, with Moser we've uncovered maybe 1/100th of his trimming output so far.

That would suck if that was true about that particular company. Like definitely hobby-altering.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I think this thread proves how behind the times the TPAs are. We have a member here unearthing trimmed and altered cards every single day just searching through sales records (awesome work, Dan!).



I've even looked into finding a way to develop my own side-by-side image comparison software (despite my lack of programming skills) that can be implemented for a larger scale crowd-searching campaign.



Had the TPAs been more forward thinking, they would have already developed proprietary software that does what everyone here is trying to do manually. I think what the T206 scandal exposed was that the TPAs may not even keep scans of all the cards they grade! A $200 million company! To think that they're suddenly going to catch these altered cards is wishful thinking.



No excuse for PSA and the others now. We've given them the blueprint. If obvious altered cards keep showing up on the market years from now, then we can officially say the TPAs were negligent.

There’s another sad possibility nobody is addressing: it may not be possible for grading companies to address all the issues in a way many in the hobby want them to.

It sure seems that they’ll always have trouble keeping up with technology.

[superdan49]

Nice work, fellas! This has now gone mainstream. Olbermann and SABR have picked up on the story.
https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...15178023112706

[ThoseBackPages]

i told you a while back he hates grading lol

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i told you a while back he hates grading lol

It goes back to his purchase of a fake Doyle error card from a well known dealer in 1999. He wrote an article in a card collecting publication in 2000 on the experience. His opinion was that the dealer was ethical but was putting 100% trust in the TPAs and not even looking closely at the cards he was selling.

This stuff has been happening for at least 20 years.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

It goes back to his purchase of a fake Doyle error card from a well known dealer in 1999. He wrote an article in a card collecting publication in 2000 on the experience. His opinion was that the dealer was ethical but was putting 100% trust in the TPAs and not even looking closely at the cards he was selling.

This stuff has been happening for at least 20 years.

interesting. so Keith himself couldnt tell either?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

interesting. so Keith himself couldnt tell either?

No, he uncovered it pretty easily. It was a crude fake where they cut the "Nat'l" caption off one card and stuck it on another. As you may have seen or heard elsewhere, a Doyle error card is basically the exact same card as the common version, except for the team caption after "Doyle".

He wrote how he used a loupe to examine the surface through the slab and noticed a raised area where the paper looked suspicious. Turns out the paper with the caption was amateurishly glued on top of the card.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

No, he uncovered it pretty easily. It was a crude fake where they cut the "N.Y. Nat'l" caption off one card and stuck it on another. As you may have seen or heard elsewhere, a Doyle error card is basically the exact same card as the common version, except for the team caption after "Doyle".

He wrote how he used a loupe to examine the surface through the slab and noticed a raised area where the paper looked suspicious. Turns out the paper with the caption was amateurishly glued on top of the card.

ahhh ok, ty

[Bcwcardz]

I know when PSA used to authenticate autographs on site they used to put an invisible mark on the item. I believe the mark was visible using black light. I don’t know if it would work on cards but they could use the same idea when they grade cards. If a raw card comes in with that mark it means it was graded and cracked which would tell them to scrutinize this card to the max. Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by Bcwcardz

I know when PSA used to authenticate autographs on site they used to put an invisible mark on the item. I believe the mark was visible using black light. I don’t know if it would work on cards but they could use the same idea when they grade cards. If a raw card comes in with that mark it means it was graded and cracked which would tell them to scrutinize this card to the max. Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s actually a really good thought and just may work provided it cant be washed, soaked, erased or cleaned off in anyway.

[superdan49]

1952 Topps Look 'N See #69 Guglielmo Marconi PSA 7 to PSA 9

Sold on 6/1/2018 as a PSA 7 by eBay seller sportspot to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $15
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 9 for $275
Value gain of $260

Just one quick one for tonight. The right and left borders of the PSA 9 card have been trimmed. This is further proof that the 1952 Topps Look 'N See set was a prime target for Moser due to its atypical size. This appears to be one of his specialties: targeting vintage sets that are not standard sized knowing that the graders are not skilled at sizing them up.

The colored squares on the images below are unique marks proving it is the same card.


http://www.vintagecardprices.com/car...1&w=950&h=1720



https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936721










Collectors should avoid high-graded PSA cards from this set unless they are positive of their source.