PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by rcmb3220

That would suck if that was true about that particular company. Like definitely hobby-altering.

Are we thinking it is a company with a three word name, the first being a number? If so, I agree with you. Will be a lot of "I told you so" going around.

[shagrotn77]

Originally Posted by superdan49

In general or with the Moser investigation?

There is one company in particular (not named in all of this so far) that I believe has gotten PSA to certify millions of dollars of their trimmed cards. If this were to come to light, it would be the end of PSA. But given the type of cards trimmed, it would be impossible to prove unless a former employee or whistleblower had proof to leak to Blowout, the media, or the FBI.

Are you referring to 4SC?

[3124508 on COMC]

Is it just me or did he undiamond-cut the PSA 7 Marconi? If so, they should have caught that the perpendicularity of the card is off.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Is it just me or did he undiamond-cut the PSA 7 Marconi? If so, they should have caught that the perpendicularity of the card is off.

Agreed. Probably should have been a PSA 7 MC. It was nice of him to fix it.

[Oldan Poar]

-------

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Oldan Poar

A few years back I went searching online for the selling prices of graded cards. Found a seller with a lot of 10s and I could see some tiny white on corners and other small things.

I also noticed, I have that one, that one, that one.... and mine looked better. Sent a few off and they came back 9s. smh

Nope, not mentioning any names.

I share all your concerns and like you do not name names without proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

[SetBuilder]

LOL. W.T.F.

If they're trimming low value non-sports (Marconi, seriously?), they're trimming everything.

Nothing is safe.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

LOL. W.T.F.

If they're trimming low value non-sports (Marconi, seriously?), they're trimming everything.

Nothing is safe.

It’s simply because it’s old, not 2.5”x3.5”, and registry nuts are buying the stuff.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

It’s simply because it’s old, not 2.5”x3.5”, and registry nuts are buying the stuff.

Didn't think of it from a registry perspective, but after giving it some thought, this whole trimming scandal will probably get swept under the rug, precisely because of the registry.

Set registries are more about the grades than the cards. Collectors who discover a trimmed card in their registry may just avoid going public to avoid hurting their registry stats. To them, it's like buying a Porsche and then discovering years later that the engine is re-built (it just looked so good in the driveway! Who really cares after all this time?).

It will be too embarrassing to publicly admit that your trophy card is altered.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Didn't think of it from a registry perspective, but after giving it some thought, this whole trimming scandal will probably get swept under the rug, precisely because of the registry.

Set registries are more about the grades than the cards. Collectors who discover a trimmed card in their registry may just avoid going public to avoid hurting their registry stats. To them, it's like buying a Porsche and then discovering years later that the engine is re-built (it just looked so good in the driveway! Who really cares after all this time?).

It will be too embarrassing to publicly admit that your trophy card is altered.

In some cases, they’re not going to have a choice. PSA can strike a card from the pop report without having the card in hand. We just have to hope they elect to do the right thing when presented with the evidence.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

In some cases, they’re not going to have a choice. PSA can strike a card from the pop report without having the card in hand. We just have to hope they elect to do the right thing when presented with the evidence.

If a public forum discovers it, and relays the info to PSA, then yes, they will have no choice.

But if they discover it themselves, privately, then they may just pretend they never saw it. Collectors haven't had much incentive to search through sales records until very recently. Many on this board have probably already started looking through their own holdings.

[HarryLime]

The amount of speculation and wild deductions made here has to stop. People claiming things as fact that they have no proof of. Stick to the facts.

Arthur

[vwnut13]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Collectors should avoid high-graded PSA cards from this set unless they are positive of their source.

Fixed.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

The amount of speculation and wild deductions made here has to stop. People claiming things as fact that they have no proof of. Stick to the facts.

Arthur

Originally Posted by HarryLime

The '93 SP Jeter $99k sale was shady as f***.

Arthur

At this point there is no proof of any chicanery with the 93 Jeter SP. Any questioning of it is mere deduction.

When you have uncovered dozens of trimmed PSA cards, as some of the members on here have, then you will have earned the right to determine what constitutes a wild deduction.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by superdan49

When you have uncovered dozens of trimmed PSA cards, as some of the members on here have, then you will have earned the right to determine what constitutes a wild deduction.

That's not true and you know it, Dan.

Arthur

[mjohnatgt]

I think people reading the threads are able to discern between facts and conjecture, and easily read into the innate biases of the posters making straight up slams on grading, PSA, trimmers, white knights, etc.
This is not a peer reviewed journal for publication; it's a message board. Sometimes wild theories are needed to actually move forward in an investigation. Some people call it "brainstorming."

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

I think people reading the threads are able to discern between facts and conjecture, and easily read into the innate biases of the posters making straight up slams on grading, PSA, trimmers, white knights, etc.

I disagree.

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

This is not a peer reviewed journal for publication; it's a message board. Sometimes wild theories are needed to actually move forward in an investigation. Some people call it "brainstorming."

This thread has transcended beyond being a simple post on a message board. I think that's pretty obvious. People are looking to the content of this thread (and others like it) for more revelations and knowledge. I think 312 and Dan have done an exceptional job of simply presenting the information without painting it or anyone involved in it in any light.

In order for their work to be seen by as many people as possible and to be taken as seriously as possible it needs to not be drowned out or surrounded by nonsensical, outlandish claims with no basis in reality. Every one of those posts hurts their work.

Any claims about:

• PSA/BGS/PWCC/Novella or anyone else's level of guilt (other than the trimmers)
• how widespread the issue is
• the total number of affected cards
• what is or what is not being done right now by the parties involved

are all absolute conjecture with nothing to support an opinion in any direction. Now is not the time for what "might be" or even for what "probably is" true. At this point, you've got to stick to hard, incontrovertible facts. If you want to brainstorm go do it in a different thread.

Arthur

[mjohnatgt]

I would say the vault is more like a fence, if you know what I mean.

[3124508 on COMC]

Anyone want to summarize this for me? Anything new/interesting?

https://youtu.be/_f3k5VSqVt4
(Interview with Brent about card altering.)

[mjohnatgt]

https://www.facebook.com/PSAcard/vid...epa=SEARCH_BOX
Brent was also on this Wednesday's PSA radio show. Hasn't been posted on psacard.com yet, but here's the Facebook link.

Edit: He is on from 8:30 for about 10 minutes, nothing interesting there. Back on around 35 minutes.
If you want to be hammered listening to it, take a shot every time you hear Brent say "asset."

Only interesting tidbit I heard was that he is opening up a second vault location. Doubling down. Is he regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission?

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

I disagree.







This thread has transcended beyond being a simple post on a message board. I think that's pretty obvious. People are looking to the content of this thread (and others like it) for more revelations and knowledge. I think 312 and Dan have done an exceptional job of simply presenting the information without painting it or anyone involved in it in any light.



In order for their work to be seen by as many people as possible and to be taken as seriously as possible it needs to not be drowned out or surrounded by nonsensical, outlandish claims with no basis in reality. Every one of those posts hurts their work.



Any claims about:



• PSA/BGS/PWCC/Novella or anyone else's level of guilt (other than the trimmers)

• how widespread the issue is

• the total number of affected cards

• what is or what is not being done right now by the parties involved



are all absolute conjecture with nothing to support an opinion in any direction. Now is not the time for what "might be" or even for what "probably is" true. At this point, you've got to stick to hard, incontrovertible facts. If you want to brainstorm go do it in a different thread.



Arthur

No offense, but who are you to tell anyone else how and/or what to post?
If you don't like the posts, maybe you need to go to a different thread.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[cking]

Originally Posted by Astros19

No offense, but who are you to tell anyone else how and/or what to post?
If you don't like the posts, maybe you need to go to a different thread.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I agree.

His post also reeks of investment protection. The less people post, the less it gets bumped up.....the less people see it.

[Vintagecollect]

Originally Posted by cking

I agree.

His post also reeks of investment protection. The less people post, the less it gets bumped up.....the less people see it.

I can't imagine why almost NONE of probstein, or other sellers cards are being altered. Maybe they are and it isnt as easy to search?


There are NO coincidences. Even the one mon sport card FDR bought from probstein, reslited through pwcc.

[corndog]

1948 Leaf Joe DiMaggio #1

*This alteration is not an easy notice due to the blurred SGC images.

Card was purchased by whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a SGC-1.5 from seller pepto23 for $499.00 on August 28, 2017. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ees-1884114806
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-3 on Nov. 08, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1863759

It's too hard to tell if anything else was done besides a very slight trim on the right edge which sharpened the corners. I can see how this may not be caught by a grader because it is so slight. Although I could see it by eye, I was able to confirm the trim by blowing up a portion of the left back which included the left edge and a whole word of type. I marked on a piece of paper the width from the edge to the right edge of the letter 'd' on the word 'land' (as shown). The center points are different on both images.
I found several other high-end cards including a 1957 Unitas and a 1955 Clemente but couldn't see what changed on the cards in order to receive a bump in grade. The Unitas had a stain removed from the back but the grade stayed the same from a SGC-6 to a PSA-6. There was more than likely a monetary gain since both were sold by PWCC.

[superdan49]

The lower right corner on that DiMaggio looks especially sharpened.

This card scares me because it shows that even PSA 3 examples are not safe. Moser is not simply trimming PSA 5's into PSA 7's and 8's. He is trimming PSA 1's into PSA 3's.