PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The question I’ve never figured out is why there is such a vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely? If you don’t like graded cards and think it is a scam, then no problem - just buy raw cards. Problem solved. You are not hurt by this whole scandal. Why the extra leap wanting card grading to completely go away?

Raw cards aren't safe either. Cards are a scam.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The question I’ve never figured out is why there is such a vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely? If you don’t like graded cards and think it is a scam, then no problem - just buy raw cards. Problem solved. You are not hurt by this whole scandal. Why the extra leap wanting card grading to completely go away?

Careful now, that's what I was referring to by saying that someone had no skin in the game. I got a stern talking that I'm a sore loser.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Raw cards aren't safe either. Cards are a scam.

I laughed.

[discostu]

* When the situation is hopeless, there's nothing to worry about. *

[tconte]

Graded cards are fine. Do your best research to feel the most comfortable and go from
there. That and I recommend not buying from consignors.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The question I’ve never figured out is why there is such a vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely? If you don’t like graded cards and think it is a scam, then no problem - just buy raw cards. Problem solved. You are not hurt by this whole scandal. Why the extra leap wanting card grading to completely go away?

TPGing has provided peace of mind and consumer confidence (yeah, I know, I know) which has caused prices to soar on cards. A lot of stuff that used to be affordable no longer is. Some people have been priced out of what they collect because of the market grading has produced. I can understand the emotion behind the anti-graders.

Arthur

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by discostu

Who is this vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely?

Is there such a group?

Grading has flaws, lots of flaws. These flaws are what allow for issues clearly showcased throughout this and similar threads. Highlighting the flaws, in hopes of a modernization of grading hardly seems to be wishing away grading.

I totally want the same thing as you: i.e real changes that improve the grading process. But it is not even a stretch or assumption to state that many posters here want grading to go away entirely.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

I totally want the same thing as you: i.e real changes that improve the grading process. But it is not even a stretch or assumption to state that many posters here want grading to go away entirely.

Grading reformer here. I am not a grading abolitionist, although I understand where a lot of those guys are coming from. I will say that my trust in the abilities of the TPGs has been greatly shaken, and unless action to combat this problem is publicly announced in the near future, I will move towards the view that PSA (not grading in general) has lost all credibility.

Also, someone mentioned that they only collect raw cards, so the grading controversy does not affect them. I'm willing to bet that a substantial number of the raw cards sold by both PWCC and Probstein are ones that TPGs actually rejected due to alteration that was caught. So yes, this issue affects the entire hobby, aside from those who collect 1980s Topps commons.

[Cubsfanp]

Originally Posted by discostu

Who is this vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely?

Is there such a group?

Grading has flaws, lots of flaws. These flaws are what allow for issues clearly showcased throughout this and similar threads. Highlighting the flaws, in hopes of a modernization of grading hardly seems to be wishing away grading.

Are you selective reading?

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Are you selective reading?

Lol

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The question I’ve never figured out is why there is such a vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely? If you don’t like graded cards and think it is a scam, then no problem - just buy raw cards. Problem solved. You are not hurt by this whole scandal. Why the extra leap wanting card grading to completely go away?

This puzzles me as well. There is a healthy discussion to be had about ways grading companies can improve what they do but there is a group on here that comes to these posts... not to attack the trimmer, or the consigner... but to use it solely as grounds to crush grading and call it a "scam". It's odd in its narrow focus.

Ungraded cards get doctored. Ungraded cards get trimmed.

Does the anger come from the price tags that accompany these high grade cards?

Because people have always charged more/paid more for pristine copies, especially of vintage.

Genuinely curious.

[Wiseguy917]

Originally Posted by 49erRCCollector

This puzzles me as well. There is a healthy discussion to be had about ways grading companies can improve what they do but there is a group on here that comes to these posts... not to attack the trimmer, or the consigner... but to use it solely as grounds to crush grading and call it a "scam". It's odd in its narrow focus.

Ungraded cards get doctored. Ungraded cards get trimmed.

Does the anger come from the price tags that accompany these high grade cards?

Because people have always charged more/paid more for pristine copies, especially of vintage.

Genuinely curious.

You honestly believe that all these high profile graded cards that are trimmed just “slipped through the cracks” don’t you?

[49erRCCollector]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

You honestly believe that all these high profile graded cards that are trimmed just “slipped through the cracks” don’t you?

*sigh*

[pcbuck]

What puzzles me more are the people with thousands of posts on this site that never comment on any of these trimming posts because they have so much money "invested" in graded cards.

What also puzzles me is that some people say that they really don't care if their cards are trimmed or altered. It's like they are too proud to admit that they got scammed so they are forced to take this stance.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by Wiseguy917

You honestly believe that all these high profile graded cards that are trimmed just “slipped through the cracks” don’t you?

I don't think anyone believes that. In fact, I'd feel more weary if they did slip through by poor quality standards. I'd wager there's at least one insider that's in on the whole thing. Find the mole, prosecute, and move on. Every industry has a bad apple or two.

Either way, tighter controls are needed. I assure you PSA and others are aware of the situation and trying to get to the bottom of it. Their non-response to the situation shouldn't be viewed as a lack of caring. They're likely performing due diligence and will report (albeit probably high-level) once their investigation is complete. I mean, do you guys really think they would provide us a play-by-play of what they're looking into? They are a publicly traded company, and it doesn't work like that. Unless you're Tesla and your CEO is a loose cannon.

[imbluestreak23]

I am not a TPG abolitionist.

I believe prices should be cheaper to grade so EVERY card can go in a slab

Don't like fat fingers damaging/molesting cards at shows, damage the plastic instead!

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Grading reformer here. I am not a grading abolitionist, although I understand where a lot of those guys are coming from. I will say that my trust in the abilities of the TPGs has been greatly shaken, and unless action to combat this problem is publicly announced in the near future, I will move towards the view that PSA (not grading in general) has lost all credibility.

Also, someone mentioned that they only collect raw cards, so the grading controversy does not affect them. I'm willing to bet that a substantial number of the raw cards sold by both PWCC and Probstein are ones that TPGs actually rejected due to alteration that was caught. So yes, this issue affects the entire hobby, aside from those who collect 1980s Topps commons.

do you want them to make a public announcement declaring their gameplan?

[JrFinest]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I don't think anyone believes that. In fact, I'd feel more weary if they did slip through by poor quality standards. I'd wager there's at least one insider that's in on the whole thing. Find the mole, prosecute, and move on. Every industry has a bad apple or two.

Either way, tighter controls are needed. I assure you PSA and others are aware of the situation and trying to get to the bottom of it. Their non-response to the situation shouldn't be viewed as a lack of caring. They're likely performing due diligence and will report (albeit probably high-level) once their investigation is complete. I mean, do you guys really think they would provide us a play-by-play of what they're looking into? They are a publicly traded company, and it doesn't work like that. Unless you're Tesla and your CEO is a loose cannon.

I wish I was optimistic with PSA but I'm not. They wont address it until their is a massive uproar on social media ,etc. Right now their just hoping everything is quietly swept under a rug.

[GatorPie]

PSA is a public company, they aren't going to say a damn thing about this.

The best thing to do is just use BGS, who has never been shown to have made a single mistake in over 20 years, ever.

[Fudd]

Originally Posted by superdan49

Grading reformer here. I am not a grading abolitionist, although I understand where a lot of those guys are coming from. I will say that my trust in the abilities of the TPGs has been greatly shaken, and unless action to combat this problem is publicly announced in the near future, I will move towards the view that PSA (not grading in general) has lost all credibility.

Also, someone mentioned that they only collect raw cards, so the grading controversy does not affect them. I'm willing to bet that a substantial number of the raw cards sold by both PWCC and Probstein are ones that TPGs actually rejected due to alteration that was caught. So yes, this issue affects the entire hobby, aside from those who collect 1980s Topps commons.

Now that's even funnier than all the trimmed cards you've exposed here. I'm sure you guys can dig for months and months if you have the fortitude and find 1000's. I hope you do

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by JrFinest

I wish I was optimistic with PSA but I'm not. They wont address it until their is a massive uproar on social media ,etc. Right now their just hoping everything is quietly swept under a rug.

I assure you, they won't be able to just do nothing. They owe it to their shareholders to investigate and make a statement. They aren't going to inform the public of every step as they know that no matter what they say, skeptics will try to tear it apart. They're performing due diligence and will make a statement once the investigation is complete. This is Public Relations 101 and their reputation is on the line. They aren't going to just blurt out a quick response.

Is everyone here a pessimist that just thinks that everyone in the world is a crook trying to pull a fast one? What in the world would be the benefit for PSA to perpetuate this fraud? They earn a fee for grading/encasing a card (which they still collect for non-gradeable cards). Any increase in the value of the card post grading makes no difference to them and they see none of the money that is generated from it. What would be their motive to do it purposely?

Edited to add:

Also note that if their due diligence and/or investigation involves law enforcement or lawsuits, they may not at liberty to discuss until thsoe things have run their course.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

PSA is a public company, they aren't going to say a damn thing about this.

The best thing to do is just use BGS, who has never been shown to have made a single mistake in over 20 years, ever.

[GoBeavs]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I assure you, they won't be able to just do nothing. They owe it to their shareholders to investigate and make a statement. They aren't going to inform the public of every step as they know that no matter what they say, skeptics will try to tear it apart. They're performing due diligence and will make a statement once the investigation is complete. This is Public Relations 101 and their reputation is on the line. They aren't going to just blurt out a quick response.

Is everyone here a pessimist that just thinks that everyone in the world is a crook trying to pull a fast one? What in the world would be the benefit for PSA to perpetuate this fraud? They earn a fee for grading/encasing a card (which they still collect for non-gradeable cards). Any increase in the value of the card post grading makes no difference to them and they see none of the money that is generated from it. What would be their motive to do it purposely?

Edited to add:

Also note that if their due diligence and/or investigation involves law enforcement or lawsuits, they may not at liberty to discuss until thsoe things have run their course.

I agree with the due diligence point. You only have to look at the reaction when PWCC tried to comment too quickly. It came across as very sloppy, and they got eaten alive.

However, I disagree with your bolded. PSA's fee structure is actually based on the value of the card. So they are certainly making more profit the higher they grade the card. Any tiered approach such as this most definitely lends itself toward skepticism/cynicism.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by GoBeavs

I agree with the due diligence point. You only have to look at the reaction when PWCC tried to comment too quickly. It came across as very sloppy, and they got eaten alive.

However, I disagree with your bolded. PSA's fee structure is actually based on the value of the card. So they are certainly making more profit the higher they grade the card.

On certain marquee cards, sure they charge more (52T Mantle, 09 BCA Trout). However, I've submitted cards worth >$1000 in bulk orders with my personal "declared value" as $99 and not once had an issue.

[Bingbong]

So, I started doing some google searching. I googled “Gar moser collector.” It lead me to this form from collectors universe from 2004:

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ho-alter-cards

After looking through the list, I googled “Gerry Schwartz” which lead me to a forum from net54 from 2014:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=181587

The link within leads to a potential bombshell article:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=27012#more-27012

The key takeaways here is: “Sources indicate that Schwartz has business relationships with many of the major auction houses and dealers in the country. It is also known throughout the hobby that allegations have been made by collectors who claim that Schwartz has sold altered and trimmed cards that were purchased on eBay and that in the past PSA has returned cards submitted by Schwartz because they were determined to have been trimmed.”

And:

Schwartz has also been associated in the past with dealer Gary Moser who claims he “was one of the first dealers to send (his) cards out and allowed a third party to determine grade.” In the past Moser has also been accused of selling altered and trimmed cards to collectors. In one such case, collector Marc Schoenen claimed that Moser had sold him, “A large number of high-grade GAI 1955 Bowman baseball cards that were independently verified later as having been trimmed, re-glossed, or a combination of both.” Schoenen confronted Moser on the Net54 board in 2008 and asked him, ”Are you planning on letting us all in on the secrets as to how you managed to perpetrate these alterations and get them past a professional grading company?” We asked Schoenen if he ever had similar problems with Schwartz and he replied, “My problems were always with Moser, specifically, but I believe they’re a tag team.”

This is from 2014 mind you..

So after reading this, I thought, “well let’s see what Facebook pulls up.”

So I looked up “Gerry Schwartz” on Facebook. Initially I was skeptical about the Gerry Schwartz who is selling a vintage raw set of vintage 1910 T88-1 Mutt and Jeff set. So I clicked on his profile, but has strict privacy settings. Fair enough.

Back to PWCC. Let’s see who’s on Facebook. Most of the board seems like good people, but can’t see who they’re friends with. Well, except Brent Huigens. So I searched his friends, and found he’s friends with one, Gerry Schwartz. The same selling the corporal set. So I searched for Dave Forman(SGC president from the halls of shame article) and found he’s friends with him as well. While you can’t search HIS friends, if you click around his profile you can find someone who’s friends you can see. What you’ll find is he resides in the same city where SGC is located, and pics of him there confirm same person from the Forman pic from the halls of shame article. When you search the friends of this person, you’ll find that Forman is also friends with, Gerry Schwartz. Given this Gerry Schwartz is connected to Brent and Dave on Facebook, I believe it’s reasonable that this is the same Gerry Schwartz from the halls of shame article.

I’m not surprised that you would find the upper echelons of these companies would be friends; they’re in the same hobby and all. If this has been posted already I apologize for missing it. Also, if I have the wrong Schwartz, I sincerely apologize as well.