2017 Bowman Chrome and the Evidence that BGS 10s are BS!

[kyaa]

Some of you may have noticed a thread recently in which another Blowout user shared the results of their grading submission and had something like 50 percent BGS 10s overall and over 70 percent BGS 10s on 2017 Bowman Chrome cards. (http://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1129512) I feel compelled to speak out on this issue.

Like any person who gets cards graded, I would be very pleased to get a high percentage of BGS 10s back on a grading order. It's free money. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. But I think there is growing evidence that BGS 10s are given out almost at random and that there is virtually no meaningful difference between many BGS 9.5s and BGS 10s, certainly not one worth paying for. It seems like 25 to 50 percent of BGS 9.5s could just as easily grade as BGS 10s. Let's consider 2017 Bowman Chrome cards as an example.

Because they don't have clear centering and because the cards tend to have sharper edges and surfaces than previous Bowman Chrome issues, these cards have a better chance to grade high than most other cards. That's fine. But the inconsistency within the grading of 2017 Bowman Chrome cards as BGS 10s has been pretty bizarre to anyone paying attention.

Some people are sending in 2017 Bowman Chrome cards and getting less than 10 percent BGS 10s. Others, like JacobCYE who submitted in the thread mentioned above, are have gotten more than 70 percent BGS 10s on 2017 Bowman Chrome submissions. No doubt that some of this discrepancy is due to the cards submitted and how picky or "skilled" the submitters were, but I don't think there is any way those elements can explain all or even most of the difference. It seems like inconsistent grading or some other reason originating from BGS has to be somewhat responsible for this. And I see this level of inconsistency as a pretty big problem.

BGS 10s fetch a high premium in the market, sometimes 2 to 3 times BGS 9.5s and even higher for Black Labels. If that premium were based on a measurable difference between 9.5s and 10s, so be it. But I think the wide variance in 2017 Bowman Chrome grading shows that the measurable difference isn't really there. Send in 2017 Bowman Chrome cards one day and you might get 15 percent BGS 10s and 2 percent Black Labels. Send the same cards in a week later and it seems like you might get 70 percent BGS 10s and 30 percent black labels.

I know that many people have a vested interest in BGS graded cards and especially highly graded recent ones holding their value, and will defend BGS almost no matter what. Others will be inclined to say that the variance of 10 percent BGS 10s and 70 percent BGS 10s for the same brand and year of cards is not a problem. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But personally, I think this level of variance in card grading is bad for the hobby. And I do not think this level of variance is primarily attributable to the "skill" of people sending in cards. It would be nice to see some constructive discussion about this.

[moosetequila]

[ThoseBackPages]

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by kyaa

Some of you may have noticed a thread recently in which another Blowout user shared the results of their grading submission and had something like 50 percent BGS 10s (http://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1129512) I feel compelled to speak out on this issue.

Like any person who gets cards graded, I would be very pleased to get a high percentage of BGS 10s back on a grading order. It's free money. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. But I think there is growing evidence that BGS 10s are given out almost at random and that there is virtually no meaningful difference between BGS 9.5s and BGS 10s, certainly not one worth paying for. It seems like 25 to 50 percent of BGS 9.5s could just as easily grade as BGS 10s. Let's consider 2017 Bowman Chrome cards as an example.

Because they don't have clear centering and because the cards tend to have sharper edges and surfaces than previous Bowman Chrome issues, these cards have a better chance to grade high than most other cards. But the inconsistency of 2017 Bowman Chrome cards grading as BGS 10s has been pretty bizarre to anyone paying attention.

Shortly after release it seemed like one third to one half of all the 2017 Bowman Chrome cards came back as BGS 10s--a very high rate. Those first people to submit got very lucky--BGS was basically printing money for them. But then very quickly as in a matter of a week or two the rate of BGS 10s seemed to decline. If you submitted a card the week of release you had a 40 percent chance of getting a BGS 10. If you submitted a week later or did slower grading you had closer to a 10 percent chance of getting a BGS 10. This did not seem fair at all.

Someone can jump in and argue that those first cards were right out of the pack and deserve higher grades but I don't buy it. Many other people submitted cards right out of the pack or fresh from case breaks like those on Blowout that I believe were just as nice as those first cards. People are still breaking fresh packs of 2017 Bowman. In my opinion, it seems like Beckett was giving out a lot of 10s, then thought it was too many and consciously started giving fewer 10s, which supports my belief that BGS 10s are basically BS.

I think the inconsistency of grading also raises questions about who is getting these BGS 10s or why some submissions like the one mentioned earlier in this thread were so heavy on 10s. Is Beckett using BGS 10s to reward certain customers or types of submissions over others?

Consistency and equal treatment has got to be the backbone of any card grading company. While PSA does not have the same subgrades as BGS does, I feel that PSA's grading appears to be far more consistent. PSA 10s usually look great. I can usually spot a minor flaw in PSA 9s and so on. There will always be cards on the border but overall, I think PSA is very consistent and that type of consistency is important.

But I cannot say the same for BGS, especially when it comes to BGS 10s. I have seen plenty of BGS 10s with discernible flaws and plenty of BGS 9.5s that look flawless. And I think when one person submits 2017 Bowman Chrome cards and gets 50 percent BGS 10s and another person with a similar submission gets 5 or 10 percent BGS 10s, it's proof that something is not right. I'm curious to hear what others think.

How many PSA 9's have you seen?

[cnewby]

BGS 10 is the new BGS 9.5. Been saying it since it started.

[Hdpooh34]

Nothin new - BGS grading has been a joke for some time now.

[msterling21]

Originally Posted by cnewby

BGS 10 is the new BGS 9.5. Been saying it since it started.

That's why they started issuing black labels. Next... BGS 11

[WJCIII]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

How many PSA 9's have you seen?

Normally I'd be in on these discussions with you but this isn't a thread for constructive discussion. This thread is for BGS bashers, conspiracy theorists, anti-grading people, etc. People like you and I have no business in this thread. It will prove to be a massive waste of time.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by WJCIII

Normally I'd be in on these discussions with you but this isn't a thread for constructive discussion. This thread is for BGS bashers, conspiracy theorists, anti-grading people, etc. People like you and I have no business in this thread. It will prove to be a massive waste of time.

I've seen plenty of PSA 9s. Why?

I have no problem with people liking BGS. Like whatever company you want. But I'm trying to raise a legitimate issue about the consistency of BGS 10s. If you have any argument to explain the big variations in BGS 10s being given out or why BGS 10s should sell for twice what BGS 9.5s do, I'd be curious to hear it.

[dcarado]

Totally agree OP. I have not only seen many BS 10's and 9.5's, but have heard first-hand from people who have told me stories about getting cards bumped to a 10 by resubmitting using a faster service, grouping with higher-end cards, etc. I live a couple hours from BGS and know quite a few people that hand-deliver their orders.

It's a shame that this goes on, and honestly I think the market is starting to catch up. I don't know if anybody tracks this kind of thing, but it seems to me that BGS 10's don't get quite as much of a premium over 9.5's as they used to get.

[TimBuckTwo]

BGS 10's are being handed out like home runs at the MLB ballparks.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by kyaa

I've seen plenty of PSA 9s. Why?

I have no problem with people liking BGS. Like whatever company you want. But I'm trying to raise a legitimate issue about the consistency of BGS 10s. If you have any argument to explain the big variations in BGS 10s being given out or why BGS 10s should sell for twice what BGS 9.5s do, I'd be curious to hear it.

Of 2017 Bowman chrome? Weird I've seen only one.

As for the BGS 10 being 2x the 9.5 it isn't for 2017 while it is even more for 2016 draft. The market will dictate what everything is worth.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

Of 2017 Bowman chrome? Weird I've seen only one.

As for the BGS 10 being 2x the 9.5 it isn't for 2017 while it is even more for 2016 draft. The market will dictate what everything is worth.

I didn't know you meant 2017 Bowman Chrome PSA 9s. I have not seen may of those. I was referring to how in general I can usually see why a PSA 10 is a 10 and why a PSA 9 is a 9.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by kyaa

I didn't know you meant 2017 Bowman Chrome PSA 9s. I have not seen may of those. I was referring to how in general I can usually see why a PSA 10 is a 10 and why a PSA 9 is a 9.

I've had many BGS 9 and worse come back PSA 10. It's ok to be a hater but the product you are using as an example is just an easy product to grade. There are a lot of 10's out there for a reason.

I went 90% and 85% two PSA submissions getting 10'a and just went 25/28 on my most recent. None of those were 2017 Bowman chrome autos.

I understand f someone is a hater but look at both sides of the coin.

I had a card grade a BGS 9 then a BGS 8 then a BGS 8.5 twice and now it's in a PSA 10 slab. :/.

[kyaa]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

I've had many BGS 9 and worse come back PSA 10. It's ok to be a hater but the product you are using as an example is just an easy product to grade. There are a lot of 10's out there for a reason.

I went 90% and 85% two PSA submissions getting 10'a and just went 25/28 on my most recent. None of those were 2017 Bowman chrome autos.

I understand f someone is a hater but look at both sides of the coin.

I had a card grade a BGS 9 then a BGS 8 then a BGS 8.5 twice and now it's in a PSA 10 slab. :/.

I'm not talking about crossover grading. I'm talking about grading consistency within the same company. Why would some people get 50% BGS 10s of 2017 Bowman Chrome and some get 5%? You're not really responding to the issues I raised about the consistency of BGS 10s.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by kyaa

I'm not talking about crossover grading. I'm talking about grading consistency within the same company. Why would some people get 50% BGS 10s of 2017 Bowman Chrome and some get 5%? You're not really responding to the issues I raised about the consistency of BGS 10s.

Because they are even more stringent and picky on what they send on.

Look at the grades across my group subs some people had 3 dimes in 5 cards and others had zero in 30.

Personally I grade anything that I think has at least 3x 9.5 subs so my dime percentage will be lower.

How many cards do you think he didn't send in?

Graded cards are such a small sample size in general. That along with stuff like rcr where you just get it graded at a show then only send in your hits to get hard slabbed (only time hey show in a pop report).

You're making the assumption people are sending in each and every card.

Better technology/cleaner cards and people being pickier with what they send in will mean more 10's and 9.5's vs less.

Ps - wasn't a crossover. Cracked and sent in raw each time.

[rutgersjpm]

If Beckett makes 10s more attainable it devalues every card that was ever given a 9.5. When one in every 6 cards in someone's order pops a black label, it's only a matter of time before 9.5 become the new 9.

Sorry Beckett, but between the terrible return times, charging people up front as opposed to after the cards are graded and now this I have a feeling PSA will now get 80+% of my grading business as opposed to what's historically been the other way around.

[rutgersjpm]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

Because they are even more stringent and picky on what they send on.

Look at the grades across my group subs some people had 3 dimes in 5 cards and others had zero in 30.

Personally I grade anything that I think has at least 3x 9.5 subs so my dime percentage will be lower.

How many cards do you think he didn't send in?

Graded cards are such a small sample size in general. That along with stuff like rcr where you just get it graded at a show then only send in your hits to get hard slabbed (only time hey show in a pop report).

You're making the assumption people are sending in each and every card.

Better technology/cleaner cards and people being pickier with what they send in will mean more 10's and 9.5's vs less.

Ps - wasn't a crossover. Cracked and sent in raw each time.

How many black labels?

[moosetequila]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

Because they are even more stringent and picky on what they send on.

Look at the grades across my group subs some people had 3 dimes in 5 cards and others had zero in 30.

Personally I grade anything that I think has at least 3x 9.5 subs so my dime percentage will be lower.

How many cards do you think he didn't send in?

Graded cards are such a small sample size in general. That along with stuff like rcr where you just get it graded at a show then only send in your hits to get hard slabbed (only time hey show in a pop report).

You're making the assumption people are sending in each and every card.

Better technology/cleaner cards and people being pickier with what they send in will mean more 10's and 9.5's vs less.

Ps - wasn't a crossover. Cracked and sent in raw each time.

This pretty much sums it up... I could send in every card I have and get lots of 8's and in some cases worse. I was super picky on my recent 8 card sub to BGS... I got 2 black labels, four 10's... and 2 9.5's (one I knew had iffy corners). These were all mega box ref's... any 2017 Topps/Bowman chrome type technology is a much better card right out of the box compared to most out there... it's just a fact and 10's will be much more prominent. Hate it... doesn't change a thing.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by rutgersjpm

How many black labels?

2 total out of the last 876 cards (2 subs)

One was 2017 Bowman chrome and one wasn't.

[rutgersjpm]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

2 total out of the last 876 cards (2 subs)

One was 2017 Bowman chrome and one wasn't.

Dude just popped 5 in 30.

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by rutgersjpm

Dude just popped 5 in 30.

Saw that. Congrats to him. Idk why that's a bad thing. How many did he NOT send in because they didn't reach his standards.

This thinking is the same that everyone posts their box breaks when we all know most only post when they have a big hit. (Please note I said most not all)

[preakness]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

You type
Like
Me

[rutgersjpm]

Originally Posted by jewcer2k5

Saw that. Congrats to him. Idk why that's a bad thing. How many did he NOT send in because they didn't reach his standards.

This thinking is the same that everyone posts their box breaks when we all know most only post when they have a big hit. (Please note I said most not all)

You hit 2 in 876.

I've seen 4 in 1,000+.

Dude hit 5 in 30.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[jewcer2k5]

Originally Posted by rutgersjpm

You hit 2 in 876.

I've seen 4 in 1,000+.

Dude hit 5 in 30.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Again, how many did he NOT send in?????? How picky was he? You're arbitrarily alluding to something without any idea what his process was.

Personally I went 29/29 in a recent BGS sub and 25/28 in a PSA sub. (I also went 6/12 in a BGS sub, because of 2015 centering nonsense)

Maybe he's just good at picking out and cleaning the cards he wanted to send in. But why think that when you can think conspiracy, right?