PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Oldan Poar]

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[JrFinest]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I assure you, they won't be able to just do nothing. They owe it to their shareholders to investigate and make a statement. They aren't going to inform the public of every step as they know that no matter what they say, skeptics will try to tear it apart. They're performing due diligence and will make a statement once the investigation is complete. This is Public Relations 101 and their reputation is on the line. They aren't going to just blurt out a quick response.

Is everyone here a pessimist that just thinks that everyone in the world is a crook trying to pull a fast one? What in the world would be the benefit for PSA to perpetuate this fraud? They earn a fee for grading/encasing a card (which they still collect for non-gradeable cards). Any increase in the value of the card post grading makes no difference to them and they see none of the money that is generated from it. What would be their motive to do it purposely?

Edited to add:

Also note that if their due diligence and/or investigation involves law enforcement or lawsuits, they may not at liberty to discuss until thsoe things have run their course.

No. I work for one of the biggest banks in the world and see how they operate.

I wont believe it until I see a statement ,and I just don't see it happening. We can revisit this thread in a few years to see their "progress" on a statement.

A simple we are aware of the situation at this point would go a long way.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Fudd

Now that's even funnier than all the trimmed cards you've exposed here. I'm sure you guys can dig for months and months if you have the fortitude and find 1000's. I hope you do

I'm the first to admit that we're in the first chapter of exposing all of this. Lots more to come.

But for some people, one single graded trimmed card means that all grading is a scam. And for others, even if 100,000 PSA graded cards were found to be altered, they'd yell that it was Wild West in the days before TPGs and the hobby is much better now. I think those folks' positions will not change.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by JrFinest

No. I work for one of the biggest banks in the world and see how they operate.

I wont believe it until I see a statement ,and I just don't see it happening. We can revisit this thread in a few years to see their "progress" on a statement.

A simple we are aware of the situation at this point would go a long way.

What point are you trying to make? Do you work in the bank's PR department?

The second they make a statement acknowledging the situation, the clock starts ticking on when the public will expect a resolution. I don't blame them for holding off, especially if there's tons of moving parts that we're not privy to.

[irv]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I assure you, they won't be able to just do nothing. They owe it to their shareholders to investigate and make a statement. They aren't going to inform the public of every step as they know that no matter what they say, skeptics will try to tear it apart. They're performing due diligence and will make a statement once the investigation is complete. This is Public Relations 101 and their reputation is on the line. They aren't going to just blurt out a quick response.

Is everyone here a pessimist that just thinks that everyone in the world is a crook trying to pull a fast one? What in the world would be the benefit for PSA to perpetuate this fraud? They earn a fee for grading/encasing a card (which they still collect for non-gradeable cards). Any increase in the value of the card post grading makes no difference to them and they see none of the money that is generated from it. What would be their motive to do it purposely?

Edited to add:

Also note that if their due diligence and/or investigation involves law enforcement or lawsuits, they may not at liberty to discuss until thsoe things have run their course.

Have you ever seen any episodes of "American Greed"?

[superdan49]

These next two cards were uncovered by 3124508. I'm reposting and uploading to images to Imgur because the "after" photos went poof after PWCC switched servers.

1952 Topps Look 'N See #104 Queen Elizabeth II PSA 6 to PSA 8
Originally posted by 3124508

Sold on 12/24/2017 as a PSA 6 on eBay to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $20
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $199
Value gain of $179

Another 1952 Topps Look 'N See, which is one of Moser's favorite sets to trim. The left edge has been trimmed, which helps the centering and making the edge cleaner.

The green rectangle shows where the card was trimmed and the pink rectangles point out unique print marks which prove it is the same card.


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...een-1904766168



https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1936721

[superdan49]

1953 Parkhurst #29 Boom Boom Geoffrion PSA 7 to PSA 9
Originally posted by 3124508

Sold on 9/24/2018 as a PSA 7 on eBay to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $129
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $6,370
Value gain of $6,241!

This 1953 Parkhurst was a huge financial windfall for Moser, all for a trim of the right border. Imagine if you could make over $6,200 for 10 minutes of work. This guy does just that by defrauding honest collectors.

The green rectangles show unique print marks on both front and back. Look how much closer the marks are to borders in the PSA 9 vs. the PSA 7. No doubt this was seriously trimmed.


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-29-1953352018



https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934584

[THE(NEXT)LEVEL]

Originally Posted by superdan49

1953 Parkhurst #29 Boom Boom Geoffrion PSA 7 to PSA 9
Originally posted by 3124508

Sold on 9/24/2018 as a PSA 7 on eBay to whitman111 (Gary Moser) for $129
Consigned to PWCC and sold on 3/27/2019 as a PSA 8 for $6,370
Value gain of $6,241!

This 1953 Parkhurst was a huge financial windfall for Moser, all for a trim of the right border. Imagine if you could make over $6,200 for 10 minutes of work. This guy does just that by defrauding honest collectors.

The green rectangles show unique print marks on both front and back. Look how much closer the marks are to borders in the PSA 9 vs. the PSA 7. No doubt this was seriously trimmed.


https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-29-1953352018



https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1934584

This is ridiculous. Imagine the total amount of money Moser bilked out of unsuspecting buyers.

[palmetto7]

Scam easily goes into millions of dollars over the years....at some point theres going to be a lot of arrests across the board.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by irv

Have you ever seen any episodes of "American Greed"?

I have, but I think folks need to put the pitchforks down for a moment and think this through. No matter the small amount of money PSA could possibly make on this scheme, it's nothing compared the amount they would lose by destroying their reputation by purposely committing fraud.

I'm sure they (PSA, the company) are not purposely coordinating efforts with these bad actors. However, I'm fully convinced an employee(s) must be in on it. If the company in general had a "let this scammer perpetrate his crime" policy, it would have come out years ago by ex-employees. No, this is going to be someone(s) with the ability to ensure submissions by a single entity are treated differently than the rest. It could be a low-level employee all the way up the chain, but I highly doubt this is a situation where everyone in the company is in on the scheme. They will likely find those involved, and they will act accordingly.

While a punch to the face, grading companies needed something like this to happen to elicit the change needed in the industry. I anticipate their eventual press release about the topic will include a rundown of their investigation, a high-level summary of the action taken, and changes that they are going to make to prevent this situation from occurring again in the future. A couple things I hope comes out of all this are tighter controls on card size and better tracking of serially-numbered cards.

To put the future of grading in perspective, let's take a look at other major corporate failures of recent past. Consumers have a very short memory when it comes to things like this.

A.) Target leaked debit card info for 40 million people. People still shop at Target.
B.) Wells Fargo created fake accounts for customers to meet sales quotas. People still bank at Wells Fargo.
C.) Facebook leaked info on 87 million users to Cambridge Analytica. People still use Facebook.



To close, the work performed by the members here is fantastic! It needed to be brought to light, and now that it has work can be done to move the hobby forward. One step back, two steps forward.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

Scam easily goes into millions of dollars over the years....at some point theres going to be a lot of arrests across the board.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

The sheer volume this guy has personally done is going to be the undoing. All PSA has to do is pull his submissions, identify who graded/handled them, and boom. Busted.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

The sheer volume this guy has personally done is going to be the undoing. All PSA has to do is pull his submissions, identify who graded/handled them, and boom. Busted.

Suppose he didn't submit his own cards.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Suppose he didn't submit his own cards.

That is the million dollar question. If that is the case, PSA should ban whoever submitted on his behalf. But PSA has proven to be feckless in the face of moneyed interests.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Suppose he didn't submit his own cards.

It would be smart of him to pass them through a bulk submitter to try and cover his tracks, but I'm sure he would have probably used the same one repeatedly. The second the bulk submitted gets questioned by the FBI, he sings like a canary. It's also great that we can show proof that he purchased the card in original condition before being sold again "conserved". It's circumstantial, but there's meat there.

[irv]

Originally Posted by rngrdanny22

I have, but I think folks need to put the pitchforks down for a moment and think this through. No matter the small amount of money PSA could possibly make on this scheme, it's nothing compared the amount they would lose by destroying their reputation by purposely committing fraud.

I'm sure they (PSA, the company) are not purposely coordinating efforts with these bad actors. However, I'm fully convinced an employee(s) must be in on it. If the company in general had a "let this scammer perpetrate his crime" policy, it would have come out years ago by ex-employees. No, this is going to be someone(s) with the ability to ensure submissions by a single entity are treated differently than the rest. It could be a low-level employee all the way up the chain, but I highly doubt this is a situation where everyone in the company is in on the scheme. They will likely find those involved, and they will act accordingly.

While a punch to the face, grading companies needed something like this to happen to elicit the change needed in the industry. I anticipate their eventual press release about the topic will include a rundown of their investigation, a high-level summary of the action taken, and changes that they are going to make to prevent this situation from occurring again in the future. A couple things I hope comes out of all this are tighter controls on card size and better tracking of serially-numbered cards.

To put the future of grading in perspective, let's take a look at other major corporate failures of recent past. Consumers have a very short memory when it comes to things like this.

A.) Target leaked debit card info for 40 million people. People still shop at Target.
B.) Wells Fargo created fake accounts for customers to meet sales quotas. People still bank at Wells Fargo.
C.) Facebook leaked info on 87 million users to Cambridge Analytica. People still use Facebook.



To close, the work performed by the members here is fantastic! It needed to be brought to light, and now that it has work can be done to move the hobby forward. One step back, two steps forward.

You seem to be forgetting, all those on the show, American Greed, were caught.
Money/greed does strange things to some people and those with any common sense at all, seem to lose the ability to use it when they have $$$ signs in their eyes.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

That is the million dollar question. If that is the case, PSA should ban whoever submitted on his behalf. But PSA has proven to be feckless in the face of moneyed interests.

how would they do that?

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by irv

You seem to be forgetting, all those on the show, American Greed, were caught.
Money/greed does strange things to some people and those with any common sense at all, seem to lose the ability to use it when they have $$$ signs in their eyes.

Collector's Universe has almost 300 employees. That would be difficult to hide for an extended period of time. Disgruntled ex-employees would have knocked that house of cards down years ago.

It could be a higher-level employee with override power pulling the strings. While not a good look, it still wouldn't imply that the entire company is corrupt.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

how would they do that?

PSA knows who submitted those cards. Maybe Moser did it under his own name, although I've heard from a few sources that he is prohibited from submitting to PSA.

If Moser is banned, then who helped him out? Was it PWCC? Was it a family member? Was it another friend from Strong Island? Not looking at you btw TBP. Or am I??

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA knows who submitted those cards. Maybe Moser did it under his own name, although I've heard from a few sources that he is prohibited from submitting to PSA.

If Moser is banned, then who helped him out? Was it PWCC? Was it a family member? Was it another friend from Strong Island? Not looking at you btw TBP. Or am I??

That's interesting! Do we have any ideas why? Was he busted for trimming?

If he's banned and all his cards are still making it through, it could be:

A.) PSA is truly just terrible at catching trimming
B.) He alerted his mole at PSA from whom the cards would be submitted

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA knows who submitted those cards. Maybe Moser did it under his own name, although I've heard from a few sources that he is prohibited from submitting to PSA.

If Moser is banned, then who helped him out? Was it PWCC? Was it a family member? Was it another friend from Strong Island? Not looking at you btw TBP. Or am I??

lol nice!

im just saying, Burge has been subbing to PSA for years

what may happen is ... they piss off the wrong people, which results in a visit from some wiseguys who have their address

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by superdan49

PSA knows who submitted those cards. Maybe Moser did it under his own name, although I've heard from a few sources that he is prohibited from submitting to PSA.

If Moser is banned, then who helped him out? Was it PWCC? Was it a family member? Was it another friend from Strong Island? Not looking at you btw TBP. Or am I??

Look at 54 for an answer to that question.

[superdan49]

For those members who have not seen these clips and keep hearing references to the CNBC show American Greed, here are the two key clips on the Mastro scandal:

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

The question I’ve never figured out is why there is such a vocal group that wants grading to go away entirely? If you don’t like graded cards and think it is a scam, then no problem - just buy raw cards. Problem solved. You are not hurt by this whole scandal. Why the extra leap wanting card grading to completely go away?

Nobody wants grading to go away. However, plenty of people think the *premium prices* highly-graded cards often receive is frequently a complete joke given its inherently subjective nature...and now because we’re finding it doesn’t help protect against fraudsters as much as it should.

Many collectors think people pay for the slab label and not the card. The “investor” side of the hobby has gone nuts and people are going to get hurt as a result.

I think most everyone would agree that if graded card pricing were more objective, like in comics, people would enjoy it more. For example, each little grade bump of a modern card should only represent a price increase of, maybe 15% and certainly not 100% or some other crazy number.

[rngrdanny22]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

Nobody wants grading to go away. However, plenty of people think the *premium prices* highly-graded cards often receive is frequently a complete joke given its inherently subjective nature...and now because we’re finding it doesn’t help protect against fraudsters as much as it should.

Many collectors think people pay for the slab label and not the card. The “investor” side of the hobby has gone nuts and people are going to get hurt as a result.

I think most everyone would agree that if graded card pricing were more objective, like in comics, people would enjoy it more. For example, each little grade bump of a modern card should only represent a price increase of, maybe 15% and certainly not 100% or some other crazy number.

Why do people care what other people do with their money?

These people you speak of can either (a) not buy cards they think are overpriced, or (b) go take a hike.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by pcbuck

What puzzles me more are the people with thousands of posts on this site that never comment on any of these trimming posts because they have so much money "invested" in graded cards.



What also puzzles me is that some people say that they really don't care if their cards are trimmed or altered. It's like they are too proud to admit that they got scammed so they are forced to take this stance.

Yes, it’s curious to see a lack in of prospectors in these threads (isn’t this supposed to be a prospector-heavy forum?) given the close correlation between grading and prospecting. Or maybe I’m just missing them.

Or, maybe they’re accustomed to these kinds of crises and know to stay away. Apparently they feel as though they can successfully manage any fallout from any grading scandal and still turn a profit?

Anyway, it would be great to hear from more prospectors here.