PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[Vintagecollect]

Originally Posted by Cubsfanp

Olbermann gave a quick opinion on this a few weeks ago on twitter. Not sure its been brought up yet.

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...15178023112706

Says he who is 100s of thousands (?l deep in PSA cards

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

It likely just reinforces the completely subjective nature of grading cards.

Only 10 of those Giannis cards exist. A year later, it gets resubmitted for a grade bump, and BGS didn't know they had already graded the card a 9.5? C'mon. There's only 10!

Grading is subjective, sure, but what's more concerning is that BGS knew or should have known that the card had been graded a 9.5 just a year before. Shouldn't they stick to their 9.5 grade assessment instead of changing their minds on a dime? That looks bad, IMO.

The difference between a 9.5 and a 10 is so minuscule that it makes me wonder what's happening behind the scenes.

[pejc300]

That Giannis card was graded in August of 2018. It was just graded. Then someone bought it, had it reviewed just 2 or 3 months later, and it got the increase raising it's value by $6,000. Anyone who thinks these are not inside jobs, or favors from friends, is absolutely out of their minds. Remember all those Kobe refractors that got bumped to BGS 10 black labels that were all submitted by the same person? Same with these Lebrons.

These are inside jobs. Incestual connections. And right now, Mr. Beckett WJC in the other thread isn't exactly helping dissuade me.

"Oh, if you submit enough and you know what you're doing, you would get the same grades." PLEASE.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Just those two cards resulted in an almost $40,000 increase in value. Sure, some of the value in the LeBron can be attributed to time, maybe $15,000 or so.

You don't think this process is susceptible to corruption?

Love ‘em or hate ‘em, graded card reviews are a long established practice in the industry. We need to keep this thread on point with the proven alterations/fraud so the message doesn’t get muddled.

[POKTRITON]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Just those two cards resulted in an almost $40,000 increase in value. Sure, some of the value in the LeBron can be attributed to time, maybe $15,000 or so.

You don't think this process is susceptible to corruption?

100% susceptible to corruption. You don't think some graders have been paid for favorable grades?

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Only 10 of those Giannis cards exist. A year later, it gets resubmitted for a grade bump, and BGS didn't know they had already graded the card a 9.5? C'mon. There's only 10!

Grading is subjective, sure, but what's more concerning is that BGS knew or should have known that the card had been graded a 9.5 just a year before. Shouldn't they stick to their 9.5 grade assessment instead of changing their minds on a dime? That looks bad, IMO.

The difference between a 9.5 and a 10 is so minuscule that it makes me wonder what's happening behind the scenes.

The TPGs don’t track what they have graded other than 1/1s. This has been discussed at length over the years. Should this become a practice? Yes, but it’s not currently and should not then be used as an example of fraud.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by dmanrico

Love ‘em or hate ‘em, graded card reviews are a long established practice in the industry. We need to keep this thread on point with the proven alterations/fraud so the message doesn’t get muddled.

A grade review, re-submission, or whatever you want to call it, typically happens between grading companies. PSA grades your card a 9 to your dissatisfaction, and you send it to BGS for a second opinion.

Not, sending it back to the same grading company a few months later.

Cards aren't supposed to get better with age.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

A grade review, re-submission, or whatever you want to call it, typically happens between grading companies. PSA grades your card a 9 to your dissatisfaction, and you send it to BGS for a second opinion.

Not, sending it back to the same grading company a few months later.

Cards aren't supposed to get better with age.

Not really true. People send cards back to the same company (after breaking them out of course) all the time. The subjective nature of it provides the opportunity for things just like this.

In any event, without proof it's not the same as the trimming conversation and should probably be done separately.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

A grade review, re-submission, or whatever you want to call it, typically happens between grading companies. PSA grades your card a 9 to your dissatisfaction, and you send it to BGS for a second opinion.

Not, sending it back to the same grading company a few months later.

Cards aren't supposed to get better with age.

What you just described is a very common practice. Look, if you want to debate this all over again please start a new thread. This whole discussion is hurting 312, Dan and corndog's cause.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by POKTRITON

100% susceptible to corruption. You don't think some graders have been paid for favorable grades?

Hell yes. The profit on the Giannis grade bump alone is twice as much money as the average American makes per month working a full-time job. All for a 0.5 change in opinion.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by no10pin

People send cards back to the same company (after breaking them out of course) all the time.

Why does this matter? There's only 10 Giannis cards in existence.

Are grading companies encouraging people to play the regrade lottery to generate extra revenue?

Maybe they should put an asterisk next to the number grade in the slab.

*Try again next year! (Even though nothing about the card has changed due to it's entombment.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Why does this matter? There's only 10 Giannis cards in existence.

Are grading companies encouraging people to play the regrade lottery to generate extra revenue?

Maybe they should put an asterisk next to the number grade in the slab.

*Try again next year! (Even though nothing about the card has changed due to it's entombment.

It matters because you said people don't do it. They do, and it's still a different conversation than the massive fraud that's been uncovered in the past year.

[qdoggmets]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

PSA is actually allowing discussion of this on their message board provided everyone remains civil. Their moderator says that President Steve Sloan is collecting the information to make a response. Check the PWCC Vault thread.

Where is that thread located please?

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by no10pin

It matters because you said people don't do it. They do, and it's still a different conversation than the massive fraud that's been uncovered in the past year.

My point is that, while I don't doubt people send in unnumbered cards to the same grading company over and over until they get the grade they want, this particular Giannis card is serially numbered to only 10. See the difference?

If your scenario is considered typical, then it implies that BGS has no quality control and doesn't keep a database of cards they've graded in the past.

[no10pin]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

My point is that, while I don't doubt people send in unnumbered cards to the same grading company over and over until they get the grade they want, this particular Giannis card is serially numbered to only 10. See the difference?

If your scenario is considered typical, then it implies that BGS has no quality control and doesn't keep a database of cards they've graded in the past.

Check out the pop report on some superfractors. There's only 1 of those, and yet you'll see 3-4 in the pop report.

Not new, and while I agree with you that they should track things like that, it's been known for a long time that they don't.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by no10pin

Check out the pop report on some superfractors. There's only 1 of those, and yet you'll see 3-4 in the pop report.

Not new, and while I agree with you that they should track things like that, it's been known for a long time that they don't.

Well, that's a problem, isn't it?

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by no10pin

Check out the pop report on some superfractors. There's only 1 of those, and yet you'll see 3-4 in the pop report.

Not new, and while I agree with you that they should track things like that, it's been known for a long time that they don't.

Please stop responding to SetBuilder. This should all be done in a separate thread.

[smanzari]

Originally Posted by qdoggmets

Where is that thread located please?

Here's One (alteration v. conservation)

Here's Another (PWCC Vault)

[superdan49]

I respectfully ask members who want to discuss 0.5 point bumps on modern BGS cards in a thread about altered vintage PSA cards to please begin a new thread. I cannot stop you from discussing this here, but I would appreciate it greatly.

Thanks!

[Bigbluesooner]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Here is another card that mysteriously went from a BGS 9.5 to a BGS 10.

2013-14 Spectra Gold Giannis Antetokounmpo patch auto card, #04/10.

Sold on April 23, 2018 in a BGS 9.5 holder for $2,510. Worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...nis-1924966994.

Then sold by probstein in a BGS 10 holder for $9,160. eBay Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2013-14-Spe...p2047675.l2557

That 0.5 bump in grade increased the price by $6,650.

Who would pay grading fees to resend a card to BGS that is already graded a 9.5, unless something about the card changed?

Stick to the facts. Don't muddy the waters unless you have verifiable proof. It's a disservice to all the work 312, Dan and corndog have done.

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by Bigbluesooner

Stick to the facts. Don't muddy the waters unless you have verifiable proof. It's a disservice to all the work 312, Dan and corndog have done.

Then make a list of all the cards discovered thus far, complete with the evidence. Separate them out of this thread so that they don't get contaminated with conjecture.

Currently, this is an ongoing discussion on the topic, not a master file of your work thus far.

[pejc300]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I respectfully ask members who want to discuss 0.5 point bumps on modern BGS cards in a thread about altered vintage PSA cards to please begin a new thread. I cannot stop you from discussing this here, but I would appreciate it greatly.

Thanks!

Noted, and I agree. Sorry and thanks!

[LSUNatChamps]

All of these new developments make me wonder how strong the market for graded cards (or any cards) for that matter really is. We generally believe it to be strong (and the "After" prices achieved for many of these trimmed cards certainly bears that out, but besides potential shill bidding, trimmers artificially boosting the price of lower graded cards to re-buy, as well as trimmed cards being being sold for artificially inflated amounts, I just wonder where a clean, more transparent market would settle out.

[dmanrico]

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

All of these new developments make me wonder how strong the market for graded cards (or any cards) for that matter really is. We generally believe it to be strong (and the "After" prices achieved for many of these trimmed cards certainly bears that out, but besides potential shill bidding, trimmers artificially boosting the price of lower graded cards to re-buy, as well as trimmed cards being being sold for artificially inflated amounts, I just wonder where a clean, more transparent market would settle out.

Hopefully we’ll find out!

[corndog]

PSA Cert #28469666

1909-11 T206 George Davis CHICAGO - Sweet Caporal

Value gain of $253.62

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-2 on October 11, 2016 for $114.38. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1360933
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-5 for $368.00 on February 05, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1599942
Same card sold again by seller caldango for $621.00 on December 09, 2018. PSA Registry link: https://www.psacard.com/cert/28469666/

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red circles show corner repair. Back of card has been cleaned. Spots to the right of the face were removed. Any other surface issues that may have been addressed can't be seen.