PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Excellent post! This is spot on. A few people will be in trouble, some leadership changes are likely to occur, and a list of alerted cards will perpetuate, but if anyone thinks for a moment that PSA will be brought down by this... I guess I'm just not sure what world those people think they're living in.

The TPGs aren't just some small side service leeching off of the hobby. They ARE the hobby. They have completely transformed the entire industry. All valuations of every card any of us buy or sell, graded or ungraded, are subject to their opinions whether we like it or not. The vast majority of all slabbed cards are not altered. Hell, even the majority of PWCC cards are almost certainly unaltered. Grading services are critical to the hobby, and they're not going away anytime soon.

PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards. If the majority of them (more than half) are not altered, that's hardly any consolation given how many are altered even in your optimistic view of the world. At this point, rhetorical efforts to downplay the scope of the problem sound -- and are -- stupid at best and disingenuous at worst.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pspa123

PWCC has sold hundreds of thousands of cards. If the majority of them (more than half) are not altered, that's hardly any consolation given how many are altered even in your optimistic view of the world. At this point, rhetorical efforts to downplay the scope of the problem sound -- and are -- stupid at best and disingenuous at worst.

My point is that several voices around here will tell you that almost everything coming through PWCC has been altered in some way. That's a fairly ignorant view. The reality is that PWCC receives consignments from a massive number of people from all across the hobby. Some of those people are bad actors who are looking to hide while their trimmed cards sell. PWCC, and any other consignment groups, are magnets for these criminals simply because of the nature of their business. It might also be the case that the squirrely CEO guy is in on the trimming with a few of the bad actors, or at least complicit in their efforts. But I'm confident that the FBI will get to the bottom of that if so. Either way, buying cards from them increases one's risk of encountering trimmed cards for sure, but the actual magnitude of that risk is being grossly exaggerated by several voices in this community. It's as if they have no idea of the volume of cards the TPGs have actually graded. You guys could literally track down 10,000 of these and you still wouldn't have made a dent percentage wise in the graded card market. Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a problem and I'm happy this BS is getting called out, but I'm also a realist, and the exaggerations here are a bit ridiculous at times.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My point is that several voices around here will tell you that almost everything coming through PWCC has been altered in some way. That's a fairly ignorant view. The reality is that PWCC receives consignments from a massive number of people from all across the hobby. Some of those people are bad actors who are looking to hide while their trimmed cards sell. PWCC, and any other consignment groups, are magnets for these criminals simply because of the nature of their business. It might also be the case that the squirrely CEO guy is in on the trimming with a few of the bad actors, or at least complicit in their efforts. But I'm confident that the FBI will get to the bottom of that if so. Either way, buying cards from them increases one's risk of encountering trimmed cards for sure, but the actual magnitude of that risk is being grossly exaggerated by several voices in this community. It's as if they have no idea of the volume of cards the TPGs have actually graded. You guys could literally track down 10,000 of these and you still wouldn't have made a dent percentage wise in the graded card market. Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a problem and I'm happy this BS is getting called out, but I'm also a realist, and the exaggerations here are a bit ridiculous at times.

You’re confusing the issue, probably knowingly.

Many people are boycotting PWCC because of their apparent involvement in the ongoing grading fraud. This is not the same as people saying all of PWCC’s cards are altered.

[ken161]

The thousands of outed cards in these threads clearly illustrate the extent of the card doctoring problem. I would like to add my own little story to this irrefutable mountain if evidence.

I tried for years to put together a PSA graded 1967 Wacky Packages set (a fool's errand, I know). I wound up completing about 75% of the set of 56 cards. I had a bunch of PSA7s, a few PSA8s and a few PSA6s. I wound up abandoning this futile task a few years back and selling off my wackies, as the many short prints were extremely tough to find, and out of my price range when I did see them on eBay.

In my years of trying to piece together this set, it was rare to see a PSA9 on eBay. And I can't honestly remember seeing a PSA10. I'm sure they were out there, but they were not common. You can imagine my surprise when I went to the PWCC auction archives. Over the last 3+ years, no fewer than 35 PSA9s and eight PSA10s were auctioned off. There is absolutely no doubt in mind that many of these were altered. The outed card doctor named below has his fingerprints all over the wackies in the VCP. I know from collecting these cards for almost 10 years, that razor-sharp cornered examples simply do not exist. Now, courtesy of PWCC and their masked consignors, they are everywhere.

Anybody who doesn't think this card doctoring problem is massive is deluding themselves. If these guys are trimming 1967 wackies en masse, what do you think is happening to 1957 Mantles and 1965 Namaths?

Originally Posted by corndog

Again from an anonymous tip. Jaimet sat on this card for a little while before grading it. Other cards from the sub list confirm it never changed hands before trimming and grading.

PSA Cert #42276999

1967 Wacky Packs Die Cut Pure Hex #16

Value gain of $2,440.00

This cert is currently in Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including Brian's 1967 Topps Wacky Die Cuts.

This card was purchased by Ebay ID qut9 (Will Jaimet) from Ebay seller 70topcat as a PSA 8 for $210.00 on June 14, 2017.
VCP link: https://vintagecardprices.com/card/n...e/193991/PSA/8

Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA 10 for $2,650.00 on February 27, 2019.
PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1917022

Yellow circles are print, fiber, or chipping identifiers.
Red box identifies trimmed left edge. Very noticeable if you look at the two small snipped images and the spacing between the type and the right edge.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

The TPGs aren't just some small side service leeching off of the hobby. They ARE the hobby.

I'd say your viewpoint is laughable, but in reality its shocking you would be touting such a bizarre view in this thread!

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by ken161

The thousands of outed cards in these threads clearly illustrate the extent of the card doctoring problem. I would like to add my own little story to this irrefutable mountain if evidence.

I tried for years to put together a PSA graded 1967 Wacky Packages set (a fool's errand, I know). I wound up completing about 75% of the set of 56 cards. I had a bunch of PSA7s, a few PSA8s and a few PSA6s. I wound up abandoning this futile task a few years back and selling off my wackies, as the many short prints were extremely tough to find, and out of my price range when I did see them on eBay.

In my years of trying to piece together this set, it was rare to see a PSA9 on eBay. And I can't honestly remember seeing a PSA10. I'm sure they were out there, but they were not common. You can imagine my surprise when I went to the PWCC auction archives. Over the last 3+ years, no fewer than 35 PSA9s and eight PSA10s were auctioned off. There is absolutely no doubt in mind that many of these were altered. The outed card doctor named below has his fingerprints all over the wackies in the VCP. I know from collecting these cards for almost 10 years, that razor-sharp cornered examples simply do not exist. Now, courtesy of PWCC and their masked consignors, they are everywhere.

Anybody who doesn't think this card doctoring problem is massive is deluding themselves. If these guys are trimming 1967 wackies en masse, what do you think is happening to 1957 Mantles and 1965 Namaths?

I'm sure you're probably right about those. The majority of high end graded cards in particular vintage sets are likely to be altered. But that's a pretty small subset of the graded cards out there.

[cking]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

It might also be the case that the squirrely CEO guy is in on the trimming with a few of the bad actors, or at least complicit in their efforts

You need to take the 'might' out of your statement.

There is no might about it.

It has been proven time and time again for a 110% FACT that PWCC was aware that certin cards were trimmed before he sold them.

And I am not talking a few cards.............I am talking thousands of cards

Literally, millions of dollars in cards

You need to go back and read ALL the trimming threads from beginning to end....it is all laid out there for you with indispuatble photographic proof

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by cking

You need to take the 'might' out of your statement.

There is no might about it.

It has been proven time and time again for a 110% FACT that PWCC was aware that certin cards were trimmed before he sold them.

And I am not talking a few cards.............I am talking thousands of cards

Literally, millions of dollars in cards

You need to go back and read ALL the trimming threads from beginning to end....it is all laid out there for you with indispuatble photographic proof

These threads are tattooed full of conjecture though. I've read through hundreds and hundreds of pages on it. I get the picture. I'll wait for the actual detectives (the FBI) to sort out what he did or didn't know and what his involvement was. I'm confident they'll get to the bottom of it. I'm less interested in what a bunch of hobbyist forum "detectives" have to say on the matter. Maybe he's guilty of everything you guys say, but I haven't seen the slam dunk arguments yet if so. I'll wait for the real investigation to conclude.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

These threads are tattooed full of conjecture though. I've read through hundreds and hundreds of pages on it. I get the picture. I'll wait for the actual detectives (the FBI) to sort out what he did or didn't know and what his involvement was. I'm confident they'll get to the bottom of it. I'm less interested in what a bunch of hobbyist forum "detectives" have to say on the matter. Maybe he's guilty of everything you guys say, but I haven't seen the slam dunk arguments yet if so. I'll wait for the real investigation to conclude.

That's quite the arrogant statement you just made. Just last month you didn't even know that many of the 1980 Topps Bird/Magic rookies didn't have print marks and now you are the only true source of truth and right reason on these forums. What a stunning metamorphosis. Totally ignorant to ultimately enlightened almost overnight.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

I'm sure you're probably right about those. The majority of high end graded cards in particular vintage sets are likely to be altered. But that's a pretty small subset of the graded cards out there.

In terms of what? Value? For someone who supposedly has a background in statistics, you don't impress a whole lot more than a chimpanzee or dolphin of average intelligence.

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

That's quite the arrogant statement you just made. Just last month you didn't even know that many of the 1980 Topps Bird/Magic rookies didn't have print marks and now you are the only true source of truth and right reason on these forums. What a stunning metamorphosis. Totally ignorant to ultimately enlightened almost overnight.

How are you still on this site, troll? How many times do I have to correct you? You keep saying this bulls**t about me not knowing there are no print marks on some of the Bird/Magic cards, yet in every post I've made about that card I've made it very clear that only some of them have the mark. I've also told you at least 3 times that I OWN THE DAMN CARD AND MINE DOESN'T HAVE THE F***ING MARK!

Here is my scan of my card. NO MARK! Now go away troll!

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by pip

In terms of what? Value? For someone who supposedly has a background in statistics, you don't impress a whole lot more than a chimpanzee or dolphin of average intelligence.

How is this guy still allowed here? This is getting old.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

How are you still on this site, troll? How many times do I have to correct you? You keep saying this bulls**t about me not knowing there are no print marks on some of the Bird/Magic cards, yet in every post I've made about that card I've made it very clear that only some of them have the mark. I've also told you at least 3 times that I OWN THE DAMN CARD AND MINE DOESN'T HAVE THE F***ING MARK!

Here is my scan of my card. NO MARK! Now go away troll!

As usual, lots of invective but not much else. Here's your previous statement:

Here's one that's live on ebay right now which has 100% been altered. You don't need a before pic of this one. Anyone who knows this card knows that the very common black print alignment mark on the bottom right of this card has been messed with. That mark is always dark and looks the same on every card.

It was only after I posted an image of the uncut sheet and you looked at your own card that you discovered that no more than half of the cards had the print mark. Tell me, Mr. mathematical wunderkind, what does "very common" mean?

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

How is this guy still allowed here? This is getting old.

I thought you were ignoring me. Is it time to retreat back to your safe space again?

[signed79]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

How are you still on this site, troll? How many times do I have to correct you? You keep saying this bulls**t about me not knowing there are no print marks on some of the Bird/Magic cards, yet in every post I've made about that card I've made it very clear that only some of them have the mark. I've also told you at least 3 times that I OWN THE DAMN CARD AND MINE DOESN'T HAVE THE F***ING MARK!

Here is my scan of my card. NO MARK! Now go away troll!

I hope you are able to get the help that you need.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My point is that several voices around here will tell you that almost everything coming through PWCC has been altered in some way. That's a fairly ignorant view. The reality is that PWCC receives consignments from a massive number of people from all across the hobby. Some of those people are bad actors who are looking to hide while their trimmed cards sell. PWCC, and any other consignment groups, are magnets for these criminals simply because of the nature of their business. It might also be the case that the squirrely CEO guy is in on the trimming with a few of the bad actors, or at least complicit in their efforts. But I'm confident that the FBI will get to the bottom of that if so. Either way, buying cards from them increases one's risk of encountering trimmed cards for sure, but the actual magnitude of that risk is being grossly exaggerated by several voices in this community. It's as if they have no idea of the volume of cards the TPGs have actually graded. You guys could literally track down 10,000 of these and you still wouldn't have made a dent percentage wise in the graded card market. Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a problem and I'm happy this BS is getting called out, but I'm also a realist, and the exaggerations here are a bit ridiculous at times.

You get bashed a lot for no real reason but this post is pretty ignorant. You've said you've gone back and read this thread but there's simply no way that's possible if you have the above opinions. It's a FACT that Brent is 100% involved and complicit in this fraud. That has proven by BODA. The current amount, including linked submissions, easily surpasses 100,000 cards with the overwhelming main focus being PWCC/Moser. Is EVERY SINGLE card PWCC sells altered? No, of course not. But knowing what we know from this thread, why, in the name of all that is sdacred and holy, would ANYONE choose to purchase a card from PWCC or choose to consign cards to PWCC? They are ACTIVELY selling trimmed cards as I type this that they previously sold and got outed. That company is as corrupt as any other criminal enterprise. Buy your PSA 8 Mantle from someone else, for god's sake.

Originally Posted by pip

As usual, lots of invective but not much else. Here's your previous statement:

It was only after I posted an image of the uncut sheet and you looked at your own card that you discovered that no more than half of the cards had the print mark. Tell me, Mr. mathematical wunderkind, what does "very common" mean?

You look like an idiot every time you bash this guy with the same argument. Look at his quote, which you have just provided, above. "Very common" is being used to describe the black print mark. He's not saying every card has it, he's saying it's very common. At the end, when he's talking about cards that DO have it, he's saying that it's always dark, on every card. "Every card" describing the very dark aspect.

He never said every card has the line. You've called him a fool I don't know how many times here for something he never said. You've called him a fool because you don't understand proper grammar. Stop talking. You look like an idiot.

Arthur

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

My point is that several voices around here will tell you that almost everything coming through PWCC has been altered in some way. That's a fairly ignorant view. The reality is that PWCC receives consignments from a massive number of people from all across the hobby. Some of those people are bad actors who are looking to hide while their trimmed cards sell. PWCC, and any other consignment groups, are magnets for these criminals simply because of the nature of their business. It might also be the case that the squirrely CEO guy is in on the trimming with a few of the bad actors, or at least complicit in their efforts. But I'm confident that the FBI will get to the bottom of that if so. Either way, buying cards from them increases one's risk of encountering trimmed cards for sure, but the actual magnitude of that risk is being grossly exaggerated by several voices in this community. It's as if they have no idea of the volume of cards the TPGs have actually graded. You guys could literally track down 10,000 of these and you still wouldn't have made a dent percentage wise in the graded card market. Don't get me wrong, this is clearly a problem and I'm happy this BS is getting called out, but I'm also a realist, and the exaggerations here are a bit ridiculous at times.

What’s your evidence of who’s consigning what to PWCC? PWCC already admitted in email that some of their largest consignors were caught up in this and this was six months ago when only a small handful of names were known. Now it’s pretty much all of their largest consignors.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

These threads are tattooed full of conjecture though. I've read through hundreds and hundreds of pages on it. I get the picture. I'll wait for the actual detectives (the FBI) to sort out what he did or didn't know and what his involvement was. I'm confident they'll get to the bottom of it. I'm less interested in what a bunch of hobbyist forum "detectives" have to say on the matter. Maybe he's guilty of everything you guys say, but I haven't seen the slam dunk arguments yet if so. I'll wait for the real investigation to conclude.

It is a fact that Brent knew, not conjecture. He's admitted it in emails and personal conversations. He has been in cahoots with Gary for decades. This has all been posted and discussed ad nauseum before your involvement. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel, it's ridiculous at this point.

[superdan49]

Bo you need to read this entire thread before posting. Straight up.

[pip]

HarryLime,

BH was under the mistaken impression that the vast majority (perhaps even "all") of the cards had the print mark. That was obvious from the context of the original conversation. His perspective then dramatically changed as he found out he had no idea what he was talking about.

He writes the same nonsense about the number (both quantity and value) of altered cards. It is clear he is oblivious to the truth. He also seems to lack common sense and has multiple emotional meltdowns (here, in PMs to me, in complaints to moderators). He does not seem to be a stable person and should probably not be in a place where his arguments are subjected to others' analysis. It is clearly too much for him.

[base set]

Apologies to Ken, and I enjoy collecting Wacky Packages stickers. But I find the idea of collecting them based on the quality of sharpness of a corner of a very large area of white space to be 100% insane, and is really the penultimate example of the psychology at play here. They are small pieces of Pop Art to be enjoyed for what is in the image itself.

As long as people get their rocks off by thinking “I have a PSA 10 and you don’t”, they will be played for the fools that they are.

Yeah, easy to criticize life, I know. A solution? A 5 point grading scale (Mint, Near-Mint, old school, yaddayaddayadda) would be perfectly adequate for most people. But not for those with darker psychologies. If grading were to start today with such a scale, soon enough someone would create a newer, mine-goes-to-11 type scale of Mint+ anyway.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Bo Hunter

Here is my scan of my card. NO MARK! Now go away troll!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/attach...1&d=1572944858

Wrong again. Look closely under the "NS" in Johnson. See that? A faint print mark from the card's position on the print sheet.

[pip]

Originally Posted by base set

Apologies to Ken, and I enjoy collecting Wacky Packages stickers. But I find the idea of collecting them based on the quality of sharpness of a corner of a very large area of white space to be 100% insane, and is really the penultimate example of the psychology at play here. They are small pieces of Pop Art to be enjoyed for what is in the image itself.

As long as people get their rocks off by thinking “I have a PSA 10 and you don’t”, they will be played for the fools that they are.

Yeah, easy to criticize life, I know. A solution? A 5 point grading scale (Mint, Near-Mint, old school, yaddayaddayadda) would be perfectly adequate for most people. But not for those with darker psychologies. If grading were to start today with such a scale, soon enough someone would create a newer, mine-goes-to-11 type scale of Mint+ anyway.

You may joke about this but if Beckett were somehow able to overcome their incompetence, arrogance, and conflicts of interest and offer more of a market challenge, PSA would indeed come up with a 10+ grade or something commensurate to Beckett's black label to be more competitive.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by pip

You may joke about this but if Beckett were somehow able to overcome their incompetence, arrogance, and conflicts of interest and offer more of a market challenge, PSA would indeed come up with a 10+ grade or something commensurate to Beckett's black label to be more competitive.

Who wants a gem mint card when you can have a pristine one?

[Bo Hunter]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

You get bashed a lot for no real reason but this post is pretty ignorant. You've said you've gone back and read this thread but there's simply no way that's possible if you have the above opinions. It's a FACT that Brent is 100% involved and complicit in this fraud. That has proven by BODA. The current amount, including linked submissions, easily surpasses 100,000 cards with the overwhelming main focus being PWCC/Moser. Is EVERY SINGLE card PWCC sells altered? No, of course not. But knowing what we know from this thread, why, in the name of all that is sdacred and holy, would ANYONE choose to purchase a card from PWCC or choose to consign cards to PWCC? They are ACTIVELY selling trimmed cards as I type this that they previously sold and got outed. That company is as corrupt as any other criminal enterprise. Buy your PSA 8 Mantle from someone else, for god's sake.

Fair enough. I'm certainly ignorant on the overall breadth and depth of this scandal. If I gave off the impression that I've read everything, that was a false impression. I mentioned that I've read through hundreds of pages (there are thousands), and that I felt as though I had the "big picture". But there's obviously more to this than I've digested. I just don't have the time to go back and read through everything. Particularly when much of what I have read is conjecture, and further conjecture built upon prior conjecture. It takes patience and careful attention to sort through what is and isn't true and I just don't have the time necessary to do that, so I'll refrain from weighing in on what the PWCC guys did or didn't do. But I prefer taking the agnostic approach in general, so my language reflects that. The most damning evidence I've seen to date against PWCC is that certain cards were purchased by their eBay account that were later sold by them after having been trimmed. Who did the trimming and who all was in on it I don't know though. Most people here seem to think Brent(Brett?) is in on it, and they're probably right, but I just don't know enough to say anything with certainty so I'll just become an observer on that topic for now. I'm confident that the FBI will get to the bottom of it though, and I'm happy to "wait for the movie" on this one rather than "reading the book" first. I know enough to avoid PWCC's auctions in general though, and I know enough to inspect very closely every card I purchase.