Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by ken161

Dr. Beckett is a sharp guy with a Ph.D. in Statistics. I've got to believe that deep down he knows that trimming cards is a very widespread problem.

Perhaps he's afraid of a panic. I believe that when the bottom falls out of graded cards prices, it will do so in spectacular Oct 1929 fashion - particularly for the PSA9 and PSA10 cards.

that will be when it all crashes, not relegated to slabs

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

that will be when it all crashes, not relegated to slabs

No, probably not. This is because cards and slabs are two different things, and not one thing.

Slab values will definitely take the biggest hit, as investors like to use it as a subjective value multiplier that doesn’t really have to do with cards. This kind of reasoning is what PWCC likes to use as a defense to selling altered graded cards: “it’s PSA’s fault, and not mine because I’m selling slabs and not cards.”

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by MoreToppsPlease

No, probably not. This is because cards and slabs are two different things, and not one thing.

Slab values will definitely take the biggest hit, as investors like to use it as a subjective value multiplier that doesn’t really have to do with cards. This kind of reasoning is what PWCC likes to use as a defense to selling altered graded cards: “it’s PSA’s fault, and not mine because I’m selling slabs and not cards.”

money is money

[pspa123]

Mr. Vaynerchuk does not share the expectation of a crash. Though this is a more sober assessment than some of the hype we have seen from him.

https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/9-fac...-sports-cards/

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Scottish Punk

I think this has a lot to do with how each grades. It is the downside of sub grades. Take a card with three of the four attributes that are great. PSA will look at that and say those corners are a 9 and the card stays a 9. BGS can give those corners a 9 and the other three sub grades a 9.5 and then the card is 9.5.

Exactly. Which is why the BGS 9.5 gets less money in the market than a PSA 10. People know that a BGS 9.5 is very likely a PSA 9 that won't 10.

Originally Posted by ken161

Dr. Beckett is a sharp guy with a Ph.D. in Statistics. I've got to believe that deep down he knows that trimming cards is a very widespread problem.

Perhaps he's afraid of a panic. I believe that when the bottom falls out of graded cards prices, it will do so in spectacular Oct 1929 fashion - particularly for the PSA9 and PSA10 cards.

I get the feeling that Dr. Beckett doesn't have the foggiest idea what goes on in his card grading division. He probably has one putz that he has monthly meetings with where they talk about growth and strategy and that's it. As long as the capos are filling the Boss's pockets, he's not going to ask questions.

Arthur

[auburn35]

PWCC has joined the other defendants and filed their motion to dismiss. Pretty much the same arguments as PSA and Probstein123 (Savoy doesn't present any specific altered cards) but here's some sections that I thought were interesting.

Again, here's a link a recap from Paul Lesko on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/Paul_Lesko/statu...307523585?s=20

First, according to PWCC, Mr Savoy has only purchased a single card from them and voiced no complaints about the card. 1980 Rickey Henderson PSA 8



Thought this was interesting, as the PWCC lawyer suggests even if PWCC had knowingly sold altered cards, there isn't any proof that Savoy was harmed.



Here, PWCC is praising their efforts for refunded identified altered cards, while also stating they never knowingly sold an altered card.

[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Here, PWCC is praising their efforts for refunded identified altered cards, while also stating they never knowingly sold an altered card.

Now I've heard everything

Brent from PWCC discussing altered cards and changes coming | Cardboard Chronicles 42
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f3k5VSqVt4

Maybe Brent can share his cleaning solution ingredients with us too?

[rob11nats]

Originally Posted by auburn35

PWCC has joined the other defendants and filed their motion to dismiss. Pretty much the same arguments as PSA and Probstein123 (Savoy doesn't present any specific altered cards) but here's some sections that I thought were interesting.

Again, here's a link a recap from Paul Lesko on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/Paul_Lesko/statu...307523585?s=20

First, according to PWCC, Mr Savoy has only purchased a single card from them and voiced no complaints about the card. 1980 Rickey Henderson PSA 8



Thought this was interesting, as the PWCC lawyer suggests even if PWCC had knowingly sold altered cards, there isn't any proof that Savoy was harmed.



Here, PWCC is praising their efforts for refunded identified altered cards, while also stating they never knowingly sold an altered card.

Thanks for these screenshots. I chuckled at PWCC's lawyer sneaking in a nice little crack at the plaintiff with "the princely sum of $89.00."

The second screenshot preemptively addresses the argument I was trying to make a few pages back--that the intentional/negligent grading of altered cards, and PWCC's sale of altered graded cards, has propped up the graded card market. PWCC's lawyer is saying that Savoy's case should be dismissed because he hasn't alleged that that happened (this is a gross oversimplification, but at this stage of a lawsuit, making the allegation is pretty much all Savoy had to do). He should be able to make that argument upon re-filing if he chooses to do so.

What I find most interesting about PWCC's motion is the cagey language in the third screenshot: "PWCC has never permitted the sale of a numerically graded card that it knew was previously determined to be "altered" or graded erroneously." The part I emphasized is the critical part. PWCC is not saying that they didn't permit the sale of altered cards; they're not even saying they didn't knowingly permit the sale of altered cards.

[table3phc]

Isn’t that all they will need to say for the court?


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[table3phc]

I’ve got no dog in the hunt here, so to speak, and admittedly jumped to the end of the thread. However, if the defendant, such as PWCC, says they don’t grade cards professionally, and they sell a card that turns out to be altered, how would they be liable?


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[Bruins1993]

Originally Posted by table3phc

I’ve got no dog in the hunt here, so to speak, and admittedly jumped to the end of the thread. However, if the defendant, such as PWCC, says they don’t grade cards professionally, and they sell a card that turns out to be altered, how would they be liable?


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From what I've read, PWCC was a top client of PSA before being banned by PSA from submitting cards for grading. Read the PWCC thread for millions of dollars of altered cards and draw your own conclusions filling in the blanks

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by table3phc

I’ve got no dog in the hunt here, so to speak, and admittedly jumped to the end of the thread. However, if the defendant, such as PWCC, says they don’t grade cards professionally, and they sell a card that turns out to be altered, how would they be liable?


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This is their out for sure. They can always fall back on, "We are not the pros and trust the PSA grades". There is language in the PSA submission about knowingly sending in trimmed/altered cards and being liable. In the end, PSA still graded them though. The other part that hurt's their "I am not a grader" stance is the high grade sticker. This is 100% grading the card.

All that being said, I don't expect anything dramatic to come out of all of this. PSA will stay slammed, PWCC will refund some stuff behind the scenes and keep on keeping on.

[pspa123]

PWCC knew it was selling altered cards. Brent knew what some of his consignors were up to, as he has admitted to people. Brent was altering cards himself, although of course he redefined alteration to exclude chemical treatments. That cards had not been "previously determined" to be altered is a complete straw man. No, they hadn't been, because Brent and his card doctor consignors were getting the cards past the TPGs who FAILED to determine they had been altered. Wordplay that shouldn't fool anyone.

[auburn35]

Here's a couple more sections that I found to be interesting.

The case isn't looking like it's going anywhere but it's interesting that PWCC is trying to suggest they are just like eBay (offering a selling platform) and not liable for the actions of their sellers (consignors). PWCC even suggests that if they were aware that altered items were being sold, they had no responsibility to stop the transactions.

I would think with what has been proven in the various altered threads, with PWCC not only selling their own altered third-party graded items but also assisting others (Gary Moser, Johnny Adams Jr.....) in grading and selling their altered items would fail the referenced Inwood test. PWCC had no control over the infringing conduct and allegedly even participated in the same actions they deny responsibility.

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by table3phc

I’ve got no dog in the hunt here, so to speak, and admittedly jumped to the end of the thread. However, if the defendant, such as PWCC, says they don’t grade cards professionally, and they sell a card that turns out to be altered, how would they be liable?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

PWCC is claiming to be selling slabs, not cards.

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by table3phc

I’ve got no dog in the hunt here, so to speak, and admittedly jumped to the end of the thread. However, if the defendant, such as PWCC, says they don’t grade cards professionally, and they sell a card that turns out to be altered, how would they be liable?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

(1) They knew it was altered but didn't disclose it.
(2) They altered it themselves.

Either circumstance should under basic fraud principles take away the hide behind the slab defense.

[Bruins1993]

Money talks

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by Bruins1993

Money talks

Especially in a hobby/business where so many appear to lack basic ethics.

[Kpooch]

Originally Posted by pspa123

Mr. Vaynerchuk does not share the expectation of a crash. Though this is a more sober assessment than some of the hype we have seen from him.

https://www.garyvaynerchuk.com/9-fac...-sports-cards/

It's been a while since I've seen that name. Met the guy once while working for a startup.

[auburn35]

Here's some of the updated notes, with Savoy trying to keep the case going.
RICO complaint was dropped from the newest filing.

Rickey Henderson (Savoy believes to be trimmed) and a Draymond Green were the cards he decided to present to the court.







Hundreds of dozens, seems to be more accurate.

[corndog]

^^^

Thanks for keeping us informed as to the status of the case. The Musial card was a perfect example of PWCC's involvement in fraud.

[qdoggmets]

I believe PWCC is lucky that Courtney died.

That guy had a lot of dealings with him, he was pissed, and I am sure he had a lot of evidence that he took to the grave, including any possible testimony he could have given.

I am certain there is a paper trail. Curious to see what turns up.

I will have lost all faith if Brent doesn't spend a day in prison. Honestly at this point he would be really lucky to have his case go to court now, in the middle of the pandemic when people are being released for non violent offenses.

[joey_peapod]

I think blowout misses the point. Nobody cares!!!! Since this “scandal”
Started #@#@#@#@ has only gone up exponentially

[MoreToppsPlease]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

I think blowout misses the point. Nobody cares!!!! Since this “scandal”
Started #@#@#@#@ has only gone up exponentially

What you describe only happens when a hobby is overrun with investors - they don’t care what’s going on as long as they can convince other investors not to care. It’s clear you’re in this camp.

Lots of hobby ignorance and corruption doesn’t mean collectors don’t care.

Of course after the investors leave after there’s no more profit and after messing up the hobby there won’t be many collectors left anyway.

[pip]

Originally Posted by joey_peapod

I think blowout misses the point. Nobody cares!!!! Since this “scandal”
Started #@#@#@#@ has only gone up exponentially

That's only because there is virtually no accountability within the industry and zero regulation/oversight of TPGs and auction houses. You are correct that there are many slab collectors who either don't care about or dismiss out of hand the widespread criminality that has taken root within the hobby. Values continue to increase as does investment and speculation. But just what is all this capitalization built upon?

To wit, I don't think it's Blowout/BODA that "misses the point." It's those who choose to abide in a lethargic stasis of ignorance and ambivalence.

I see significant change coming.