PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[auburn35]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I'm late to the party, but great find by wonkaticket. Just so it is documented for those searching the altered card is PSA cert #43673401.

This certification was just recently deactivated.

Temporary deactivation while PSA completes the standard PWCC "review" or was PSA actually able to detect one of the many, noted alterations to the card?

[jduds]

This thread got a fairly long mention in Sports Illustrated this week with PWCC being called out by name for selling altered cards.

[picojim]

Originally Posted by jduds

This thread got a fairly long mention in Sports Illustrated this week with PWCC being called out by name for selling altered cards.

here is the page

[auburn35]

^

Thanks for sharing that image of the SI article.

Would be interested to see that full Evan Mathis email.

[Pink Pussycat]

Good to see that the scandal has received that kind of national press... and a nice acknowledgement of the great sleuths that reside here (although would've been nice to see the name "BODA" in print).

Thank for posting!

[pip]

To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards. -- Evan Mathis

Mathis comes across as a common, card-molesting criminal in that article. I can only imagine what the rest of his email to SI says. Hope someone forwards the entire thing to the FBI.

Can you imagine Mathis' quote being applied to any other type of collectible? Vintage automobiles, priceless works of art, valuable watches, etc. It would NEVER be accepted. It should be obvious to everyone by now that the card molesters are trying to narrate a "new" normal where all types of alterations are to be expected and are acceptable if a TPG has signed off on them. That's so f*cked up. Third party grading was created to REDUCE the problem of sports card molestation not ENABLE it.

[salthill]

To the purists who think a card should always be in its original condition: That just isn’t going to happen in the current state of the industry, and you should avoid buying graded cards. -- Evan Mathis

Originally Posted by pip

Mathis comes across as a common, card-molesting criminal in that article. I can only imagine what the rest of his email to SI says. Hope someone forwards the entire thing to the FBI.

It’s an incredibly short step from “I’m ok with alterations” to “I’m going to have this card altered”.
Seeing his quote in print, I’m very comfortable in my belief he’s taken that step.

[ken161]

Great article. Thanks for posting. Given the millions of dollars in fraud uncovered, I'm surprised articles like this aren't more commonplace.

Keith Olbermann quote: "(Graders) destroyed the hobby, generally don't know what the f*#% they're doing, and aren't uniformly honest."

Hard to dispute any of these points. Never get cheated.

[pip]

Originally Posted by salthill

It’s an incredibly short step from “I’m ok with alterations” to “I’m going to have this card altered”.
Seeing his quote in print, I’m very comfortable in my belief he’s taken that step.

Of course he has. At this point, I think it is reasonable to expect that EVERY raw card that has passed through his hands has been molested in some way.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by picojim

here is the page

What’s the date / cover of this edition? I want to pick one up.

[aro13]

Originally Posted by pip

Mathis comes across as a common, card-molesting criminal in that article. I can only imagine what the rest of his email to SI says. Hope someone forwards the entire thing to the FBI.

Can you imagine Mathis' quote being applied to any other type of collectible? Vintage automobiles, priceless works of art, valuable watches, etc. It would NEVER be accepted. It should be obvious to everyone by now that the card molesters are trying to narrate a "new" normal where all types of alterations are to be expected and are acceptable if a TPG has signed off on them. That's so f*cked up. Third party grading was created to REDUCE the problem of sports card molestation not ENABLE it.

I think the reason Alan Hager started third party grading was to make money. Same with why Collectors Universe was formed. At first it was easier to make money by attempting to reduce or stop card molestation. Now, it is clear the way to make the most money is to enable this very practice. When PSA first advertised wasn't there a picture of a card doctor and the idea to get your cards graded was to stop this guy from making money? Then it was all about turn this $100 raw card into $10,000 by grading with PSA and getting a 10. Doesn't matter how you turn it into $10,000.

I can understand the guy from Florida who buys $100 common cards and trims them to make them worth $500. Get a few by and make money. But someone who can spend $20K on a card and trim it make it worth $100,000K must know it is going to get thru.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by salthill

What’s the date / cover of this edition? I want to pick one up.

It's the current issue with an ESports group, Kyler Murray, and Bronny James on the cover.

[jduds]

Originally Posted by pip

Mathis comes across as a common, card-molesting criminal in that article. I can only imagine what the rest of his email to SI says. Hope someone forwards the entire thing to the FBI.

Can you imagine Mathis' quote being applied to any other type of collectible? Vintage automobiles, priceless works of art, valuable watches, etc. It would NEVER be accepted. It should be obvious to everyone by now that the card molesters are trying to narrate a "new" normal where all types of alterations are to be expected and are acceptable if a TPG has signed off on them. That's so f*cked up. Third party grading was created to REDUCE the problem of sports card molestation not ENABLE it.

Comics are the big exception to this. Comics are cleaned (often with chemicals) and pressed before grading quite often. It is such an accepted practice that the grading companies charge extra and do it themselves. Some argue that this is a form of alteration, but the genie is out of the bottle. It went from a debatable/shady practice to the industry norm due to the massive increase in profits.

[ken161]

Originally Posted by aro13

When PSA first advertised wasn't there a picture of a card doctor and the idea to get your cards graded was to stop this guy from making money?

Some of the early PSA ads in Tuff Stuff did have a picture of a card doctor. He was trimming a card with an X-ACTO knife, if I remember correctly. And I used to think PSA could stop unsavory characters like that, I really did. Of course, I used to believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

[CaptSpaulding]

Originally Posted by salthill

It’s an incredibly short step from “I’m ok with alterations” to “I’m going to have this card altered”.
Seeing his quote in print, I’m very comfortable in my belief he’s taken that step.

Clearly a guy who is not under an FBI investigation. Maybe it is because Evan might be the only guy who has never had a card rejected for altering by any of the TPG services.

[pip]

Originally Posted by jduds

Comics are the big exception to this. Comics are cleaned (often with chemicals) and pressed before grading quite often. It is such an accepted practice that the grading companies charge extra and do it themselves. Some argue that this is a form of alteration, but the genie is out of the bottle. It went from a debatable/shady practice to the industry norm due to the massive increase in profits.

I have a sizable collection and I still see that as alteration. CGC should be ashamed of themselves. There's no way any collector knows about the long-term effects of what they are doing when they "press" each book.

[pip]

Originally Posted by aro13

I think the reason Alan Hager started third party grading was to make money. Same with why Collectors Universe was formed. At first it was easier to make money by attempting to reduce or stop card molestation. Now, it is clear the way to make the most money is to enable this very practice. When PSA first advertised wasn't there a picture of a card doctor and the idea to get your cards graded was to stop this guy from making money? Then it was all about turn this $100 raw card into $10,000 by grading with PSA and getting a 10. Doesn't matter how you turn it into $10,000.

I can understand the guy from Florida who buys $100 common cards and trims them to make them worth $500. Get a few by and make money. But someone who can spend $20K on a card and trim it make it worth $100,000K must know it is going to get thru.

This is exactly right. TPGs go where the money is. Nothing else seems to matter to them.

[cking]

Originally Posted by ken161

Of course, I used to believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy as well.

What about the easter bunny and bigfoot? Loch Ness monster,maybe?

[auburn35]

Recent interview with Nat Turner.

https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=939

Starts off discussing the notion of pop control but then talks counterfeit slabs, alterations, PSA guarantee...nothing really new but a pretty good listen.

"we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up"

[pip]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Recent interview with Nat Turner.

https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=939

Starts off discussing the notion of pop control but then talks counterfeit slabs, alterations, PSA guarantee...nothing really new but a pretty good listen.

"we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up"

Contrast this with my sig line.

[chezball]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Recent interview with Nat Turner.

https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=939

Starts off discussing the notion of pop control but then talks counterfeit slabs, alterations, PSA guarantee...nothing really new but a pretty good listen.

"we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up"

Rigorous training, LOL

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by auburn35

Recent interview with Nat Turner.

https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=939

Starts off discussing the notion of pop control but then talks counterfeit slabs, alterations, PSA guarantee...nothing really new but a pretty good listen.

"we want the cards off the market, that we screwed up"

How about the Wagner 8, Nat?

[pip]

Originally Posted by pspa123

How about the Wagner 8, Nat?

Just the PSA 8 Wagner? Can you imagine how many of Kendrick's other "mint" and "gem mint" vintage cards have also been altered? I'd wager it's the majority. Kendrick can't "give up" the Wagner without exposing a whole lot of other cards for which he paid a king's ransom. Pandora's box.

[CaptSpaulding]

This https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=1121 is AWESOME! Best 2 minutes on youtube.

[pip]

Originally Posted by CaptSpaulding

This https://youtu.be/EVQ56Z7xv-U?t=1121 is AWESOME! Best 2 minutes on youtube.

A little bit past that part, Nat admits the authenticity of PSA slabs is "becoming a pretty big issue." His words. 22:18 mark. Just after that he claims that no one can perfectly duplicate the PSA slab because of all of the security issues. Well, okay.

Edited to add: The Chinese can reverse engineer a drone or even complicated portions of a super-sonic aircraft but not a PSA slab. Got it.