PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc - Page 90

ThoseBackPages · 05-29-2019, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

This is a PSA problem more than PWCC. Brent is one dealer. PSA is allowing the most obviously altered cards, tens of millions of dollars worth, to flow into the market. If their guarantee is honored completely on all of these cards, CLCT will cease to exist. Which means they won’t honor it.

and where are these cards coming from?

pspa123 · 05-29-2019, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

This is a PSA problem more than PWCC. Brent is one dealer. PSA is allowing the most obviously altered cards, tens of millions of dollars worth, to flow into the market. If their guarantee is honored completely on all of these cards, CLCT will cease to exist. Which means they won’t honor it.

"There are a few exceptions, a few provisos and a couple of quid pro quos”- Genie (aka Robin Williams in Disney’s Aladdin).

RiceBondsMT2Yng · 05-29-2019, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

This is a PSA problem more than PWCC. Brent is one dealer. PSA is allowing the most obviously altered cards, tens of millions of dollars worth, to flow into the market. If their guarantee is honored completely on all of these cards, CLCT will cease to exist. Which means they won’t honor it.

The more sinister, present, low hanging fruit is PWCC’s apparent gross negligence at best, and a federal indictment under RICO for the yet-to-be-alleged criminal conspiracy to defraud, at worst.

PSA is an all-encompassing, foundational problem that the hobby as a whole is going to have to come to grips with. This isn’t a new reality. We just have intrepid folks here proving once and for all what many of us have suspected for a long time. Maybe a little worse than what we suspected. But you catch my drift.

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

and where are these cards coming from?

As we know a handful of major card doctors. Putting them out of business or in jail won’t end card doctoring unfortunately. PSA making less like Stevie Wonder when grading cards will help.

ThoseBackPages · 05-29-2019, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

As we know a handful of major card doctors. Putting them out of business or in jail won’t end card doctoring unfortunately. PSA making less like Stevie Wonder when grading cards will help.

sure would!

and sadly, it seems PWCC appears to be the one submitting the cards on the Drs behalf

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

The more sinister, present, low hanging fruit is PWCC’s apparent gross negligence at best, and a federal indictment under RICO for the yet-to-be-alleged criminal conspiracy to defraud, at worst.

PSA is an all-encompassing, foundational problem that the hobby as a whole is going to have to come to grips with. This isn’t a new reality. We just have intrepid folks here proving once and for all what many of us have suspected for a long time. Maybe a little worse than what we suspected. But you catch my drift.

RICO? Like what the Feds use for the mafia? A regular fraud indictment isn’t enough?

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

sure would!

and sadly, it seems PWCC appears to be the one submitting the cards on the Drs behalf

And the doctors will surely find another outlet when PWCC stops.

RiceBondsMT2Yng · 05-29-2019, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

RICO? Like what the Feds use for the mafia? A regular fraud indictment isn’t enough?

RICO is easier to convict on bc the mere conspiracy is a crime, whether or not the would-be conspirators succeeded.

Wiseguy917 · 05-29-2019, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

And the doctors will surely find another outlet when PWCC stops.

BINGO! Pitchforks to be pointed at PSA first and foremost, then the remaining can turn to PWCC. Cut the head and the body dies.

ThoseBackPages · 05-29-2019, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiseguy917

bingo! Pitchforks to be pointed at psa first and foremost, then the remaining can turn to pwcc. Cut the head and the body dies.

burn them to the ground!!!!!!

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiceBondsMT2Yng

RICO is easier to convict on bc the mere conspiracy is a crime, whether or not the would-be conspirators succeeded.

Same with a federal wire fraud conspiracy.

Are you a lawyer? Why don’t you sue someone!

cking · 05-29-2019, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

PSA making less like Stevie Wonder when grading cards will help.

pspa123 · 05-29-2019, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

Same with a federal wire fraud conspiracy.

Are you a lawyer? Why don’t you sue someone!

Class action time!!!

chezball · 05-29-2019, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cking

RiceBondsMT2Yng · 05-29-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

Same with a federal wire fraud conspiracy.

Are you a lawyer? Why don’t you sue someone!

Nah, just what we all picked up from Law and Order. I have to imagine that with all the lawyers in the hobby though, a civil lawsuit is forthcoming, whether or not the government decides to pay any attention to this.

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Class action time!!!

If only we had a damn class actions lawyer! My Uncle Tom was one. Wish he was
around now.

pspa123 · 05-29-2019, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRealDeal

If only we had a damn class actions lawyer! My Uncle Tom was one. Wish he was
around now.

Intentionally causing someone to laugh so hard they break a rib is a tort, you know.

TheRealDeal · 05-29-2019, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pspa123

Intentionally causing someone to laugh so hard they break a rib is a tort, you know.

Damn. I done Stepin in it now.

JrFinest · 05-29-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLongley

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Just saw this

I'm still convinced PWCC is playing a part in this. If anything... they have proven to have some extremely shady tendencies.

JMANIA · 05-29-2019, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

I don't think it would be out of line to say that PWCC's historical gross income is less than their total sales of trimmed cards.

Well PSA's historical gross income is much lower than the value of trimmed cards it guaranteed.

JMANIA · 05-29-2019, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdan49

Holy crap, that needs its own thread.

Sports Card Radio posted other links as well. It seems to be doing a nice follow-up job objectively and noting some additional details showing someone knowledgeable wrote it. Maybe that Cardboard Chronicles guy could go back and do some real interviews with valid questions.

steadned36 · 05-29-2019, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMANIA

Well PSA's historical gross income is much lower than the value of trimmed cards it guaranteed.

CLCT as a company has earned in excess of $50 million in net income in the last decade.

cking · 05-29-2019, 08:20 PM

I am not joking when I ask this.

Do Brent and Betsy look like brother and sister or is it just my imagination?

Also, great write up by Sportscardradio. Good job with that piece.

superdan49 · 05-29-2019, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMANIA

Sports Card Radio posted other links as well. It seems to be doing a nice follow-up job objectively and noting some additional details showing someone knowledgeable wrote it. Maybe that Cardboard Chronicles guy could go back and do some real interviews with valid questions.

I know the SCR guys have a kind of shock jock approach to this business, but their journalism and research in that article was on point. Well done, SCR.

Is shill bidding a crime? Obviously what Moser did could and should get him booted permanently from eBay, but could it trigger law enforcement action against him?

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

HBMC · 05-29-2019, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSUNatChamps

All of these new developments make me wonder how strong the market for graded cards (or any cards) for that matter really is. We generally believe it to be strong (and the "After" prices achieved for many of these trimmed cards certainly bears that out, but besides potential shill bidding, trimmers artificially boosting the price of lower graded cards to re-buy, as well as trimmed cards being being sold for artificially inflated amounts, I just wonder where a clean, more transparent market would settle out.

It really is a collective example of Winner's Curse, everyone who bought inflated priced cards makes other buyers have FOMO, which drives prices higher and higher and invites more trimming/altering to help keep the supply fed for these higher prices.

Truly, it is disturbing to see some of these realized auctions on high end cards after they got doctored up.

05-29-2019, 08:20 PM	#2248
cking Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 16,263	I am not joking when I ask this. Do Brent and Betsy look like brother and sister or is it just my imagination? Also, great write up by Sportscardradio. Good job with that piece.