PWCC Altered Cards Callout Thread - 1952 Topps Mantle etc

[corndog]

PSA Cert #26929039

1954 Bowman Willie Mays #89

Value LOSS of $46.00

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-6 on May 10, 2016 for $364.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1277469
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-5.5 for $318.00 on May 09, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1486704
Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of obvious trimming. PSA bumped it down a .5 grade.

[ThoseBackPages]

[CMpunk13]

Yall are making a difference.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by CMpunk13

Yall are making a difference.

[3124508 on COMC]

Originally Posted by CMpunk13

Yall are making a difference.

Hahaha. Lots of resolutions needed.

[SaltyCracker]

Originally Posted by 3124508 on COMC

Hahaha. Lots of resolutions needed.

And scanning clerks!

[pspa123]

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #26929039

1954 Bowman Willie Mays #89

Value LOSS of $46.00

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-6 on May 10, 2016 for $364.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1277469
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-5.5 for $318.00 on May 09, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1486704
Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of obvious trimming. PSA bumped it down a .5 grade.

Even Edwin Moses lost once in a blue moon.

[mjohnatgt]

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection?
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:52AM in Trading Cards & Memorabilia Forum
With all the recent news, what does your crystal ball say for impact in 3-5 years?

Part of me feels the hobby is strong enough to learn, recover and move forward with this being an educational moment.

Another part of me feels that if the FBI gets involved and they uncover the worst case scenario, it can decimate the entire grading industry.

Getting ahead of the curve and dumping now, then moving into another area (BBCE boxes, CGC comics, etc.) might be a shrewd move, but it could save 10s of thousands in the long run.

How will you be managing your collection?

Based on recent news, are you dumping your graded card collection? 16 votes
Yes, dumping my graded cards and getting out forever. This will change the industry forever.
6% 1 vote
No, it is short-term issue and will actually make the hobby stronger.
43% 7 votes
Yes, dumping graded cards and moving into other areas of collecting, such as comic, sealed boxes, etc.
6% 1 vote
Who cares - it is just a hobby! Stop being paranoid!
43% 7 votes
Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
DBesse27DBesse27 Posts: 287 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 10:59AM edited June 1, 2019 10:59AM
None of the poll choices fit me. I thought briefly about dumping, I’m not, but not because I believe either that it’s short term or that it’ll strengthen the hobby.

Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set

Also collecting:
1964 & 68 Venezuelan Topps
1974 Topps Red Sox
Andre Tippett

doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:09AM edited June 1, 2019 11:13AM
I would never give up the hobby I love because of this situation. Card collecting is more than just a hobby, it's a lifestyle. Nothing could ever make me stop collecting, except maybe my wife holding a pair of pliers, but outside of that, nothing will ever keep me from enjoying this hobby.

Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,032 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
None of the poll choices fit me so no vote.

Answer to question hell no. Got lots of cards on deck ready to grade.

SdubSdub Posts: 707 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:20AM
If your just figuring out now that hucksters have been doctoring cards for centuries, then you should stay out of this great hobby. Be aware of what your buying and the risks involved, and admit to yourself that there are lots of slabbed vintage cards in all grades that have been "conserved" from ALL the TPG's. And most importantly, if you can't afford to have your slabbed card lose half it's value or more, then put your money somewhere else. Just my two cents.

Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
SpinFadeSplash23SpinFadeSplash23 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:50AM
Some of these reactions are eye opening. Thanks for posting.

Joe

"Ever loved someone so much, you would do anything for them? Make that someone yourself and do whatever the hell you want."
erikthredderikthredd Posts: 3,445 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:55AM edited June 1, 2019 11:58AM
Most of my graded collection is from subbing my own raw cards that I spent hours upon hours comparing and searching thru ebay listings until I found the right card that I would be happy with regardless of what grade PSA eventually gives it. I don't grade often but when I do it's mostly just to get those handpicked cards slabbed & preserved. I have no plans to stop collecting entirely because of what's been going on but I can understand where many people are unhappy with everything and don't blame them for losing faith in that market while deciding to get out now.

Eric

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 11:57AM edited June 1, 2019 11:59AM
This is an atrocious poll. The options are just stupid. No option for me. I won't be buying anymore PSA or BGS graded cards because their process is clearly the antithesis of what they claim to do, ie it's a complete failure of mission statement. I'll dump a lot of my graded stuff and keep some PC stuff for regrading when there is a trustworthy TPG option.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
1970s1970s Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:04PM
Got out of graded cards years ago because of all the uncut sheets that flooded the market through the mastronet auctions. I knew many of those would find their way into holders, and they did. But I do still collect graded, but not as much as I used to. Much smaller now. But when I do buy graded cards, I look for properly sized cards in scans, and cards that are not 1/16th inch smaller. There are MANY beautiful, unaltered cards resting in PSA 9 and 10 holders that are absolute beauties. You just have to know which ones are good, and which ones aren't. Just think of how many beautiful 1952 Topps cards are in PSA 9 holders that came from the Mr. Mint Massachusettes find. There are many MINT vending and wax beauties resting in holders today that are absolutely 100% good. Just keep your eye out for the short cards in holders. TPG has not done a good enough job with this.

ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:08PM
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

Andy

CommemKingCommemKing Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:18PM
Did I miss something? I haven't heard any troubling news. Post me a link or something please.

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection (Retired)

Johnson Early Commemorative Collection II

perkdogperkdog Posts: 18,440 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:19PM
I stopped buying graded cards a while ago, it had a lot to do with being able to enjoy my cards more in raw form and not stressing about resale value. Inconsistent grading didn’t help matters much either, regardless of what comes of this new “Epidemic” I think the hobby will drive on

hyperchipper09hyperchipper09 Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:23PM
Nope. Collector only. Though I am a bit disappointed, though not shocked, by what appears to be systemic collusion between a few parties in pursuit of the almighty dollar while also conning buyers and collectors. But that happens anytime big bills are involved.

sportscardtheorysportscardtheory Posts: 1,781 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:38PM edited June 1, 2019 12:39PM
@ahopkins said:
It's just a hobby. I collect cards to get away from stress, not to incur it.

You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

tradingcardcommunity on reddit - CLICK HERE, JOIN AND POST!]
doubledragondoubledragon Posts: 793 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:39PM
You wouldn't know there's any trouble. I just lost an auction on Ebay for a PSA Joe Louis card. We fought like animals at the end for it. I got stomped.

nam812nam812 Posts: 9,344 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 12:55PM
This is a silly poll that assumes everyone knows what "news" you re talking about.

My 1910 Champions T218 set at 100% with a GPA of 5.047, and all 153 cards are scanned.
ahopkinsahopkins Posts: 663 ✭✭✭ June 1, 2019 1:05PM
@sportscardtheory said:

show previous quotes
You and those like you are exactly who these criminals prey upon. You empower them.

I'm going to take the high road on this one. Thanks for your insightful evaluation.

Andy

AFLfanAFLfan Posts: 229 mod June 1, 2019 1:07PM
This one is already heading down a path I don't care for, so I am going to wrap it up here.

Todd Tobias
PSA Employee & Grateful Collector
I focus on autographed American Football League sets, Fleer & Topps, 1960-1969, and vintage lacrosse cards.

Just in case the thread goes poof from the PSA boards, I'm crossposting it here. They are letting some threads stay there, but any inflammatory ones like this will get pulled.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #28469899

910 E93 Standard Caramel Hughie Jennings

Value gain of $1,586.77

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-5 on April 06, 2016 for $660.23. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1261037
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $2,247.00 on March 11, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1619062

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify stain or ink removal on back.
Very subtle changes that got a substantial grade bump.

[mjohnatgt]

As they say in Tommy Boy, "If you want me to take a #@#@#@#@ in a slab and mark it PWCC-Certified, I will! But I think you'd rather have the whole card." Too bad it didn't get one after the "conservation" being done.

[steadned36]

Originally Posted by corndog

PSA Cert #26929039

1954 Bowman Willie Mays #89

Value LOSS of $46.00

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-6 on May 10, 2016 for $364.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1277469
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-5.5 for $318.00 on May 09, 2017. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1486704
Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of obvious trimming. PSA bumped it down a .5 grade.

For once, they didn't like the cut of his jib.
He must have been so insulted - they reduced the grade by .5 because of his patented rough-cut!

[signed79]

Is there an instance where a PWCC-HE card was bought, altered, and then resold? Seems like the sticker always comes after altering, not before.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by signed79

Is there an instance where a PWCC-HE card was bought, altered, and then resold? Seems like the sticker always comes after altering, not before.

Yeah, the caramel PSA 5 to PSA 7 went from sticker to no sticker...

[steadned36]

Originally Posted by signed79

Is there an instance where a PWCC-HE card was bought, altered, and then resold? Seems like the sticker always comes after altering, not before.

The 1961 Jerry West a few pages back

[corndog]

PSA Cert #25959196

1948 Leaf Football Sammy Baugh RC #34

Value gain of $1,231.00

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-5 on April 24, 2016 for $671.00. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1270250
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $1,902.00 on September 22, 2016. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1352478

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify trimmed edges.

[ThoseBackPages]

[corndog]

PSA Cert #28469896

1910 E93 Standard Caramel Nap Lajoie

Value gain of $893.50

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a SGC-1.5 on March 06, 2016 for $242.50. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1241732
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-6 for $1,136.00 on March 11, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1619064

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of residue removal. The double red square points to new paper coating loss on the letter 'R'. PSA???

[KhalDrogo]

Moser must go full attention when he sees a card like that Lajoie. All he has to do is bathe it and he gains 4.5 points? Probably easier than giving a three year old a bath.

[qdoggmets]

Originally Posted by mjohnatgt

Airing of Grievances: PSA edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252

I dont believe we need another thread to follow. There are 100 of them. There is nothing new here. What are you stating not already known or this the official bitching ground?

[mjohnatgt]

That can be an official bitching ground. Because all the threads are spread over so many forums, it's good to have a place to collate them all.

[Morgoth]

There have been a few crack and resubmits listed here. I did a 2 year SGC to PSA crack and resub study and it is stickied in the Vintage thread. You can see how inconsistent it is to get better grades when doing this. SGC misses a lot too.

Without the card doctoring you would see dramatically different results from all of the crack and crossovers.

[corndog]

PSA Cert #28313054

1933 DeLong Marty McManus #1

$319.23

This card was sold by PWCC to whitman111 (Gary Moser) as a PSA-4 on February 07, 2016 for $85.77. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1205549
Same card was sold by PWCC as a PSA-7 for $405.00 on June 11, 2018. PWCC Marketplace link: https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1669727

PWCC note from the PSA-4 listing description: "Some very faint surface wrinkles near the top right corner are all that prevents a higher grade."

Yellow circles are fiber or print mark identifiers.
Red squares identify areas of residue removal. Also the entire front and back of the card appear to have been cleaned (very noticeable on the whites of the front).

[Erikthredd]

Has anyone kept a running total count of value gained in all of the before/after card sales from the Gary Moser doctored card list alone?

[KhalDrogo]

$85.77 on the first McManus sale.

[mjohnatgt]

Originally Posted by Erikthredd

Has anyone kept a running total count of value gained in all of the before/after card sales from the Gary Moser doctored card list alone?

I'm sure PSA is. In fact, it's mostly automated through their Auction Prices Realized tool.